Hello everyone, Does anyone have any tips on attaining Qinggong? I realise this skill is thought to have been lost during the Boxer's Uprising, however in this article Ma Chuanxu appears to demonstrate the technique (http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html) I have looked at the theory behind this skill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_gong) but would appreciate any information anyone has regarding this ability. Is walking the Bagua circle a good starting point (as hinted on page 9 of the Ziranmen section of http://www.ziranmen.com/artsframe.htm) Is it necessary to practise intense Qi Gong along with physical training to make progress with this technique? Any information would be greatly appreciated. S
While I know of many people who can perform some amazing jumps and acrobatics, I think the legendary components of qinggong are, well..legendary. Probably the best way to practice for this kind of skill would be plyometrics and resistance training.
qingging training here. This is master He Jin Han 5th Generation Yin Fu Ba gua when he was younger. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkpde4vSuwc"]Qing-gong ( light skill)basic practice 輕功基礎功 - YouTube[/ame] the training is based around 'bouncing' or 'bumping' of the connective tissue structures i think thanks Chris
try walking on upended bricks and an empty pot rim and see if it is basic ... Also the bumping work doesnt use the ankles or knees. Both are locked in place. Its not very easy to achieve this bumping into the air without the use of the legs normal jumping method. This is basic lightness skills training ... but is still dificult work. thanks Chris
I see, thank you for your information. How would you suggest I would go about training in it? Is Qigong required? Is it about stretching muscles/tendons? Where does one start? S
I'm certain the circle walking on bricks and the pot are far from easy They were also recommended in the Emei Baguazhang book put out by Liang, Shou-yu and Yang, Jwing-ming if I remember correctly. I still think that plyometrics would be a good place to start for jumping skills. Better than qigong, anyway.
I don't know much about this tbh, but I'll lay my grokk that the secret to real qing-gong lies in manipulating the dantien plus the physical skills..... :Alien: kind of a temporary reversal of gravity..... :Angel: (Trolls - fire at will.... )
You're right that the real qing-gong was supposed to be almost purely qigong-based, not attaching heavy weights to yourself or walking on baskets. Those things may make you able to jump high or have great balance, but they're not the qing-gong of legend, which was supposedly last witnessed in the Ming Dynasty. It's pretty much a lost skill, I believe. If you really wanted to rediscover it then devoting your life to the study of qigong would the place to start. My shifu says it is referred to in qigong texts as "lifa" or "the art of seperating (from gravity)." He's apparently read descriptions of how it works energetically, but can't figure it out as there's no one to teach him the practical method. (Dons asbestos bodysuit).
How does qigong help you jump higher? I don't mean this in a trolling sense; I'm honestly curious what believers have to say. What is it that qigong does in the example of qinggong? How does the qi training increasse jumping ability? What are the mechanics behind it? Any ideas, or are we supposed to take the possibility on faith?
Well, I think qigong makes me able to jump higher, but since my legs are also stronger since I started CMA, there's no way to prove it's from qigong. Qigong moves the energy of the body around and, at times, can feel like it's moving something of actual mass around. For example, when raising the qi to the head, the legs will have a tendency to feel "empty" or "light." When sinking the qi to the feet, there is a distinct feeling of the legs becoming fuller, and yet "springier." If you practice inhaling, which is what you usually do when raising the qi, as you perform a jump kick, I think you'll find you go higher than if you exhaled as you jumped. So in my experience, qigong can make your legs feel lighter, which makes you feel more nimble, like you could spring really high at any moment. And from my experience I really can jump a little higher after a getting my qi flow "going" so to speak. If you could somehow take this and kick it up like 4 levels, probably including movement of the dantian itself in time with the jump, Qing-gong (the ability to make crazy, flight-like jumps as if the body has temporarily decreased in weight) MIGHT be the result. Of course, this is purely speculation.
Dillon, You keep saying Qigong. this is different to QING GONG. Qi Gong is energy work, Qing Gong is lightness work. Qing gong basically involves the use of refined body skills, energetics and rebound power to create lightness. In stepping, jumping etc. Master He has a degree of Qing Gond and certainly knows the methods but has stated that to get deep skill in it you would need to train it from a very young age. Myself i do not know about this skill. But if you watch modern Parkour kids jumping across rooftops it isnt such a leap(pardon the pun!) to believe that guys that have trained from very young could accomplish comparable or beter skills in jumping and lightness. Its certainly an interesting practice for sure. How relevant it is to modern combat is up for debate. I think lightness has its merits. good discussion on an interesting method! Happy training Chris
Chris, my question was how working with the qi (qigong) affected the lightness skill (qinggong). I was wondering how people felt that qi allowed them to jump higher, that is, what the qi was actually doing. I certainly believe that you can train explosive power (through plyometrics and resistance training, for example) that will allow jumping skills that seem almost unbelievable to those unfamiliar with them. I was asking what the difference between strength training and qinggong was, because the answer seems to have something to do with qi most of the time.
Qing gong is not so much about explosive power, imo. It's not about fa-jin into the ground. My guess is that if you can move your dantian (which you can if experienced with qigong), you could theoretically move your own center of gravity, which could have interesting effects on jumping. If you watch Michael Jordan jump, it's not like he even bends his legs much for a big explosive leap. He just sort of runs and "takes off" into the air, seeming to hang longer than he ought to. I think finding the key to qinggong would be in using qigong to understand the energetic aspect of this and capitalizing upon it. Of course, great leg and core strength help too. I don't think the qigong-based "lifa" of legend' is the same as the Qing gong Middleway's describing, which is more about being very "light on your feet," and which is more about physical training of all the muscles and tendons to work together in unison.
I found this article - http://web.syr.edu/~jbegovic/Articles/lightSkill.htm What do you think about the methods described here? S
Isn't fajing explosive power? I'm not entirely sure what you mean by moving your center of gravity. Unless your body changes shape, your center of gravity should always be in the same place, relative to the rest of your body (i.e. you can move your center of gravity through space as you walk or jump, but it remains still relative to you.)
Like I said, qigong, at least subjectively, gives you the impression of being able to move the weight of your own body around your body. Since the dantian is often described as corresponding to the center of gravity and you CAN move the dantian, it would seem it might be remotely possible to slightly shift your own center of gravity without moving the rest of you. None of those jumping out of pits or running up board type methods are the type of Qing gong I'm referring to. Like I said, there was supposed to have once existed a method of Qing gong based on qigong and not physical training. However, it has been LOST (or some would argue, never existed). You won't be able to train in it. You won't find any info. on the internet about it. If anyone living knows it, they're probably off in some rural Chinese village, not talking. The closest you can come is to train Shaolin/Buddhist Qigong, like Yijin-jing or else just forget it and do plyometrics, basket-walking, etc. which WILL increase your jumping power, probably faster and more reliably than qigong.
Just to clear up a common modern misconception: (lower) Dantien is not centre of gravity. When standing in 'central equilibrium' the dantien and centre of gravity coincide, so they seem one and the same, but as soon as you shift your weight the centreline and centre of gravity move with the weight-shift - dantien remains where it is in the belly. This is an important point imo In advanced neigong practice the dantien can be raised and lowered to perform 'alchemy' - also a 'pearl' can be formed from it and circulated through the microcosmic orbit. I strongly believe that knowing how to centre in an elevated dantien will affect your relationship to gravity... I have experienced this at odd moments and during an experiment walking on soft sand on a beach, when my wife and her daughter were sinking calve-deep and I was making a light impression of about a quarter inch on the sand through focussing upwards and 'being light'. I have not pursued this since, but I may start playing with this again, in which case I'll let you know what I find out.... Peace :Angel:
I just spent the weekend at a retreat with Master He. We spent a small portion of time working on drills and exercises focusing on gravity and the part it plays in utilizing IMA. He commented that high level martial art of which he certainly posesses and has great knowledge of use the force that is gravity to best effect. I only understand this in the most basic way though.. Qing gong specifically didn't come into the training. As has been mentioned though basic training involves developing the main kwa and connective tissues and other joints etc. in a significant way. This is strong feature in his Bagua system anyway [jibengong - basics/foundation] without being specifically linked with qing gong skill. The qing gong work is probably more specific and takes to a another level. Bagua is that kind of fighting system - where moving and jumping around swiftly in and out of range of opponents is a part of the style. Power on its own is not enough, lightness on its own is not enough. My guess about qing gong is that it is a combined effect of high level physical conditioning and internal feeling.. Parkour would certainly be comparable. Imagine these guys with the added IMA methods and you could get a pretty good idea of the various possibilties. Whether you look at it from the energetic or physical angle or combined (which it most certainly must be for best effect) it is a matter of major hard work to develop. Another significant factor must have been the age in which this kind of training began. It was not an unusual thing back then. More like playtime. Also they would not have seen it as they had gained something special or magical if they had begun this kind of conditioning at such a young age. Master He did talk of one of the training methods of old that is featured on the link you posted. The one where a two pits are dug and then get progressively deeper. So get digging .. I'll be in my lazy boy drinking tea
I don't think "play time" would be the right word for it... more like torture time. I heard that for this kind of Qing gong, children would be put on a special diet to prevent them growing too tall, and their bones manipulated or deformed to insure the ideal ratios for jumping. I can see how being very nimble and able to jump high would be especially helpful for Bagua, what with the emphasis on multiple opponents, etc.) but what are you saying is the internal element of this training? How are you or Master He using qi to jump higher? No offense, but it sounds like just physical training to me. I read a theory which seems compelling to me, that Bagua (which Dong supposedly learned training at a mountain retreat) is designed for uneven or unstable surfaces, like rocky, mountainous terrain. The quick but super-stable footwork, the changing angles, all seem to be good for that. That being said, this kind of Qing gong sounds to me more like physical training for jumping around on rocks and nimbly stepping on uneven surfaces.
