QIGONG. Qi means energy and it isn't a metaphor.

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by David Silver, Mar 1, 2021.

  1. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    Lets try without using Chinese language. Your body is comprised of energy. Every one of your 60+ trillion cells is a dipole capable of taking and giving a charge. We measure biolectricity daily with things like an EEG, EKG, Ph balance. Electrophysiology is the Western study of human energy, ions, voltage, channels...and the modern martial arts community may benefit by realizing that the ancient traditions were on to something important.
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Are you saying Qi training, increases the energy in the human body?

    If so, what form of energy are you increasing, certainly some people who focus on Qi only training, have a higher mass, but I dont think that's what you are trying to imply?

    Is Qi training boosting the mitochondria / midaclorians in your cells?

    Is it changing the Ion gradient in your nerves?

    Is it using the weak or strong nuclear forces in your atoms?

    Unfortunately if your not being specific, then your being vague, and vagueness is where pseudoscience / god of the gaps type arguments exist.

    My own pet theory is that it's just a training exercise focusing on alignment and breath, that perhaps helps with lymphatic drainage, and makes people feel nice, that's been widely misrepresented, due to market forces.
    axelb, Dan Bian and David Silver like this.
  3. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    Its true, we don't have the best definition yet of exactly what's happening with qigong and taijiquan/internal arts. Its safe to say that what is described as qi theory is a process of complex biochemistry, not only one isolated form of "special energy". *Some* folks postulate that most of the effects attributed to qi within the human body can be described with nitric oxide, which is a key component of delivering oxygen into muscles. Im only an enthusiast, not the researcher who will one day explain all this is Western medical scientific terms.

    Its definitely not about more muscle mass. Its a complex process of conserving hormones, which act as a catalyst in your metabolism, and generating abundant energy, improving your circulation with movements, and then using that abundant energy intentionally in a very optimized way.
  4. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    the problem is that you dress your statements up with language from science without understanding what that language means. You are writing literal non-sense.

    You state that qi is energy and that E=MC2 and that bodies are made from mater but fail to make any legitimate augment about how the three things are related or saying anything that helps a reader to understand what chi is.

    then you say that chi is about the balance of hormones within the body. this is about biochemistry not physics and has no relation to e= MC2. By you new argument caffeine is chi because it affects the energy balance of the body. but caffeine does not supply energy to the body - in stead it modifies the pathways in which energy is released from chemicals already within the body.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  5. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    I understand why many find this confusing. But if you're trying to understand it, its not hard. If you're seeking conflict, you'll always create it. Short answer, you can't separate physics from physiology.

    I have explained this in many posts above, from many disciplines, and each one is not my opinion, but a well known investigation of the topic over the past few decades.

    Qi is bioelectricity. Bioenergy has to do with your chemistry. Your body is electric meat. How are we still confused?
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    David seems to be operating from a, "I know this is great, I just can't describe, measure or explain why it's great," viewpoint, which is fine as an opinion, but makes for a poor debating position.
    Tom bayley likes this.
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Please make one simple claim and then provide some actual evidence, then we can talk.
  8. David Silver

    David Silver Member

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  9. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Some more than others ^_^
    axelb likes this.
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    And how does deep breathing make your electric meat stronger?

  11. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Mr. Silver,you stated -

    "Tibetan Buddhism has maintained a clear historical record of every generation of practitioners continuously for thousands of years, and tracked these arts' spread around the area; this includes the monk Da Mo arriving at the first Shaolin temple in Henan province China, and heavily influencing Chinese Martial Arts, both external and internal since 550AD."

    Please provide evidence of the archival records.And translations.And confirmation of authenticity both of content and of age by a recognized institution such as Cambridge,Cornell or Beijing U.

    Buddhism was not of any significance in Tibet until around 8-900.So no record keeping for "thousands of years" . Not even close to 2.

    Odd that they keep records of Da Mo's contribution to CMAs when CMA historians point out that this "legend" of Boddhidharma's contributions stem from fictional sword novels of the 1800s.There are no earlier references. That includes his originating the I Chin Ching and etc.Perchance the compilers of these clear historical records need to familiarize themselves with the subject matter rather than regurgitating the same old. Inclines one to feel these are also fictional compilations dating no earlier than the mid to late 1800s.

    Then again we are now faced with the authentic "Tibetan T'ai Chi"-something never heard of until the last 10-15 years and OBVIOUSLY not something made up fairly recently to cash in on TC's popularity.

    You'll forgive me if I don't hang on the words of an altruistic theocratic institution with no ulterior motivations.

    Hmmm...Your Body is Electric Meat. Wasn't that a heavy metal band? If not it shoulda been!

    Or was that heavy meatal?
    axelb likes this.
  12. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Me too.
    Its because people try to explain something they dont understand, using terms they dont understand, to people who arent going to accept any old waffle on faith.

    "Chi/Qi" is not necessary in the practice of neijia. And I think, as a whole, neijia would do better if the term Qi was confined to the history books, rather than still being (mis)used as a training methodology.
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  13. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    Hello, Ive been studying and teaching qigong for many years, working also in publishing on the topic, and just somewhat obsessed with the topic for quite some time. So, I can answer most questions, and understand it in decent depth. You can try to whitewash neijia "internal training" to somehow exclude what makes it internal, but that is ...whack, if you will. "Nei" means internal. Internal means the practice is based first on the development of Qi. We don't get to decide it has a different meaning because we have not yet understood the topic. You can talk all day long about how no, no, no its all only about body structure and kinetic energy, but Im sorry, without intrinsic energy/metabolic bioenergy, you are dead meat. You are missing the meaning.

    If you decide Qi is relegated to history, then you must omit any mentions of the words energy, power, speed, alertness, and anything to do with your reflexes or movements or thoughts, all of which exist and function only thanks to...energy. The Chinese word for energy is Qi.

    In this fantastic book https://www.amazon.com/Nyingma-School-Tibetan-Buddhism-Fundamentals/dp/0861711998 published by Wisdom, you may read a thorough history of Buddhist theory, with discussion of the winds/qi and channels/meridians. It explains how and when Buddhism arrived in Tibet, and how translations were made of documents and sutras going all the way back to the first generation of practitioners around Sidhartha Gautama. The Tibetan tradition fortunately has preserved a complete record of the teaching, and all generations, including sutras and oral tradition teachings that were lost in other places. It explains who the teachers were in each generation, how many successful disciples they had, and then how many students those next generation teachers taught, all the way up to our present Dalai Lama. It is deep nerd territory for those interested. I am that nerd.

    Buddha Shakyamuni predicted his own intentional rebirth (or emanation), and described his/Padmasambhava's coming and activities in 19 Sutras and Tantras, appearing in Tibet eight years after his death (debated between 600-881 years before Christ!). He is sometimes called the 2nd Buddha. It is common for enlightened/accomplished masters to announce their death and give details of their rebirth. A continuous record has been kept.

    A racist effort has been made in China continuously to deny the arrival of black-skinned Da Mo, and Buddhism itself was outlawed multiple times in Chinese history, forcing Buddhists to hide in Taoist monasteries. Shaolin temple's first location was burned down three times, and there was much "anti-foreign outsider" sentiment for a thousand plus years starting around his arrival about 500AD (and still today). Some emperors hunted down monks and nuns and burned down thousands of monasteries, and some were Buddhists themselves, and it flip flopped for many years.

    We need to stop the Da Mo bashing and misinfo of the 1980s....Its commonly known that the Persian monk Da Mo was sent to China by his own teacher Prajñātāra, because the Buddhism being practiced in the area was ritualistic and had lost its roots/correct practice.

    The Chinese Chan /Zen school also has a clear record known as the Anthology of the Patriarchal Hall from around 950AD, and Da Mo is recorded as the 28th generation/patriarch, known worldwide also as the 2nd Buddha. Da Mo's written documents and teaching on Muscle /Tendon Changing and Brain/Marrow Washing is the root of neijia and qigong theory in general, but is in fact a component of the esoteric skills taught in ancient Buddhist lineages.

    And stuff.

    We are in the Age of Quarrel and it is normal for everyone to have a partial knowledge and misunderstanding as the teaching is fading as we become duller and more disconnected...so, good talk!
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  14. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Are you still trying to sell your dvds?
    David Silver likes this.
  15. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    Sometimes it says 8 years, sometimes it says 12 years, sometimes it says 112 years, and sometimes we read Padmasambhava was in Tibet 1200 years after Buddha. This is the problem with oral traditions and fragmented historical traditions. But the Ngyingmapa school, literally "old school", states the above historical record, and as they say "the Buddha Dharma does not lie".
    What is most relevant to THIS particular discussion is that qi means energy, and you're using it right now reading and thinking about this, and the misunderstanding of that topic in some martial arts communities is why I started this conversation.
    "How does deep breathing (inhaling ionized air) increase your energy?" I mean...I think you answered your own question, right? You inhale energy all day. And, your breathing is a crucial component of your metabolic process which has the primary function of providing energy to the body.

    Quick qi test: hold your breath for 20 minutes and then see how much energy you have.
  16. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    Nope, just chatting about qigong. I have not been shilling products. But I did disclose my profession in advance to be very clear. I can leave if you prefer.
  17. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    This has absolutely nothing to do with Qi/ki/chi/the force/whatever , at this point I’m starting to wonder if you are trolling.
  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    If the chinese had an ancient way of developing an undetectable energy that enhanced physical performance and health they would win more gold medals at the Olympics and have the longest lived and healthiest population in the world.
    Why is one of the best deadlifters in the world a 6'3" 400lb man from Staffordshire with a myostatin mutation and not a 5'2" 90lb 90 year old Qigong master from Wuhan?
    Why is the fastest person to ever live a 6'5" jamaican man and not a 5'4" Woman from Beijing who's trained her leg chi-kung?
    Why is there only one Chinese person in the top 200 oldest men and women? Why isn't the whole 200 chinese qi-gong masters?
    Why don't Qi gong masters walk into the UFC and boxing and win all the world titles?

    Essentially what I see in the world is not what I'd see if Chi was an actual real thing that could be utilised.
    David Silver likes this.
  19. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    The point of this thread is to hopefully arrive at understanding that a few of the things I saw in this forum that led me to post are super incorrect.
    Starting over: Qi is not an "an undetectable energy". It is the Chinese word for ALL energy. It is not special, better, or "more" than your bioenergy. It is your bioenergy.

    Qi is the energy we read with EKG, EEG, Ph balance etc. The misunderstanding that its some other, special thing that we need to argue about is the point of this thread. I am making no mystical claim that everything you read online about Qi is true. Im only explaining that Qi is energy, you use it every day, and stop talking about it like its still 1987.

    Or hopefully, younger martial artists and those interested in understanding qi/prana and qigong/yoga/Kung Fu reading this now or in the future will at least understand because I made the effort to have this discussion.
  20. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    The joke "Hold your breath", refers to how you will be dead (assuming you're incapable of holding breath for 20 minutes) because you stopped supplying air and energy to your body; hence breathing is in fact related to your energy metabolism. But...nevermind.

    Air is mainly ionized nitrogen and oxygen. Nitrogen contains 14 nucleons (7 protons and 7 neutrons). It has 5 electrons in its outer shell. Natural oxygen is a mixture of three stable isotopes: oxygen-16 (99.759 percent), oxygen-17 (0.037 percent), and oxygen-18 (0.204 percent). Oxygen has two allotropic forms, diatomic (O2) and triatomic (O3, ozone). The properties of the diatomic form suggest that six electrons bond the atoms and two electrons remain unpaired, accounting for the paramagnetism of oxygen.

    In your body, these metabolize into nitric oxide, which is available muscular energy. Any training, with strong mental intention, can optimize this circulation. Thats all qigong is.

    Qi is often mis-translated as air for this reason. However, qi is the energy released through the metabolic process using air, but is not air itself. This might be pointless, Im certainly repeating myself.

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