QIGONG. Qi means energy and it isn't a metaphor.

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by David Silver, Mar 1, 2021.

  1. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Bona Fide Dr's make lots of money too. Some make money specializing in Cancer treatments. Some give Chemotherapy even though they know the patient will most likely die anyways and are just desperate for some treatment. (I did some reading up on chemo after an old friend died from side effects of chemo.) Not saying chemo is all bad either, but there are some disturbing issues with it. Let's not act like all Western Dr's are all altruistic and don't have making money as a goal.

    Maybe people could just recognize some people genuinely believe in alternative treatments. You don't have to agree they work. Just maybe give people a break that they are not doing it for the wrong reasons.

    A lot of people in any profession, if they are lucky, choose it because they want to earn a living doing something they also love and believe in. It isn't a bad thing to want to make a living, even in health care.

    Not saying I think alternative medicine is a good option for cancer. I don't. Just saying not everyone who believes in alternative medicine is a scam artist.

    Just saying one can debate and discuss the efficiency without questioning and assuming the worst intention.
    David Silver likes this.
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    It's actually against the law in most countries, including the USA, to claim something treats cancer when it most certainly does not.

    It doesn't matter what you believe to be true, unless it's officially validated by the FDA you are on very shaky legal and moral ground.

    It's one of the reasons, grifters (like the essential oils business) like to phrase things in a certain way, to get around the law that protects sick people from being taken advantage of.

    For example saying "x treats cancer" is illegal without FDA authorisation, but saying "X improves wellness that can help support people recovering cancer" is more legal, what's happened here is that the OP has forgetten how to disguise his own grift and claimed something that is objectively wrong, both morally and potentially legally.

    For profit doctors also have their own issues, but their regulated by the FDA and their own medical boards, so it's less of a problem, then if those didn't exist.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
    axelb and Tom bayley like this.
  3. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Maybe not but they are regulated and governed by laws and offer treatments which are medically sound and have been tested and proven to work.
    They don't simply firmly believe in something they have empirical evidence from studies and research to back it up.

    This guy shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as qualified medical professionals using tried, tested and proven methods to assist the very ill
    axelb and Dead_pool like this.
  4. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Anything that is not harmful that could complement proven medical treatments is good. In uk we use the term complacently medicine to describe this.
    The problem is when people must choose between proven medical approaches and an unproven approach. in the uk we use the term alternative medicine to describe this.

    Sometimes the choice is made because the individual can only afford one treatment. (although not so often in the uk where proven treatments are available free at point of use from the NHS)

    Sometimes the choice is made because the those selling the alternative say that its is more effective than the proven medical treatment. sometimes the choice is made because those selling the alternative say that the proven treatment will stop their unproven treatment from working.

    When those selling alternative treatments convince patients not to take proven treatments, but to take an unproven treatment instead, the patient can suffer and/or die needlessly.
    aaradia, David Silver and Dead_pool like this.
  5. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    You have made your point. You think Im a bad person for making instructional videos with some of the world's greatest teachers. Helen had an experience and shared her story to help others. I helped her share information she found helpful. She has a long story that explains her experience, if you were interested in learning before you speak. She quit martial arts and became a bank teller to try and make a living, sitting around all day for years, disliking her life...and that's when she became ill with terminal bone cancer.

    Beginning her first serious daily life-depends-on-it qigong practice, plus TCM and many other efforts, saved her life.

    I don't believe that video has broken even from its investment. We are not profiting at anyone's expense. You have a deep misunderstanding of this topic in general.

    Sick people very often go through the best that Western medical science has to offer, 2-3 rounds of chemo, and unfortunately find they are still sick. SOME CHOOSE to then pray, or try other mind/body practices. SOME have great results from that choice. My one video on the topic of cancer out of 200 I have made, may be helpful to those who are seeking this difficult-to-find info.

    People take the topic of qigong seriously for their health because they need help. Doctors prescribe qigong, acupuncture and grounding commonly in 2021. Its time to catch up, this is not 1987 anymore.

    This thread is about the word Qi, and how that means energy, and what that means within the human body.

    How many calories did your cynicism burn? That's qi.
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Your still at it arnt you,

    No Qi training doesn't cure cancer,

    No real Dr prescribes acupuncture or chi Kung, or anything like that, to treat cancer, (perhaps to treat anxiety however).

    If your going to keep claiming things that are irrational, illegal and immoral, we may have to get the mods involved.

    The cynical school of philosophy is actually quite a good use of time, perhaps you should spent some time in cynical (the school of philosophy) self reflection before promoting dangerous quackery.
    axelb and icefield like this.
  7. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    I repeat: Qigong does not cure cancer and I am not making that statement or argument. Qigong is PART of the recovery from cancer, for SOME people. I concur the writing in my original post can be improved, troll-proofed if you will, and I have provided ample replies regarding the context of my sentiment...For anyone trying to reach understanding, not conflict.

    Re-read the original sentence:
    "Using simple Qigong exercise, many patients can survive cancer by raising the activity of the immune system to a level at which advanced healing may take place, or so they may endure the rigors of Western treatment, such as chemotherapy and radiation. For this reason, acupuncture and other Chinese arts are being studied, recommended as “alternative” healing modalities, and used widely in clinics and hospitals."
    There are dozens of these facilities and studies, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center Qigong

    and How Reiki and Qigong Can Help Cancer Patients | Dana-Farber Cancer Institute


    Whether you know about this, or believe in it, is irrelevant to this conversation, which by the way is about how the word Qi means energy.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  8. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Your selling point seems pretty clear
    axelb likes this.
  9. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    Im not selling. You edited, and added a period in the middle of my sentence which also mentions chemo. Stop pretending to make this nonsensical argument. Not interested.

    This thread is about how the Chinese word Qi means energy, and how qi-gong means energy-work, and how qigong is good for protecting or regaining your health. Its a very interesting topic to learn about and discuss, especially in the context of martial arts, from which qigong originated with various names like DaoYin and Tu Na going back thousands of years. These practices and their effects are documented in China, Tibet, India as part of buddhist "esoteric" training. In Chinese martial arts, qigong is often trained as a jing pattern specific only to that style.
    Plus 100 other topics...
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    This is absolute hogwash,
    And the attempt at calling me a troll is laughable.

    Calling out cancer quacks is a public spirited endeavour, you trying to scam desperate people is absolutely disgraceful.

    Congratulations, many people will read this, and by raising their awareness an advanced level of product avoidence will occur.

    This is terrible PR for your company you know.

    I hope noone starts to report all your products on Amazon etc and gets them removed.
    axelb likes this.
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Double post
  12. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    Im sorry to be redundant, but Im forced to reply every time you repeat - 4th or 5th time: Qigong does not cure cancer.
    I am unequivocally saying this, to be clear.
    Helen also did not say that in her interviews, or her teaching, or in her instructional video. She is very careful in fact to tell her story in detail; explain why she thinks she got sick, tell her story of being sent home from the hospital after a couple years of chemo when the doctors had nothing else to offer, and the remission she experienced. Anyone interested in mind/body practice knows it is very subjective and varies differently based on each person's understanding, specific routine, and underlying health situation. She explained in her program, and as I am explaining now, so this is perfectly clear. I would think.

    Are you suggesting that the topic of qigong itself is quackery, or that these above posted hospitals do not have "real" doctors? Again, we're taking about Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, Dana Farber Cancer Institute, Harvard Medical School, many others increasingly...These places offer programs to help people because they need help, and this is what works best to give people relief in multiple ways. As merely a small part in a wide-array of treatments and follow up care. Often after, I have mentioned, chemo and radiation as primary treatment.

    Any questions oorrrrr

    This thread.
    Is not.
    About cancer. Repeating that now clearly dead aspect of the conversation against all logic is what is often referred to on the internet as trolling. We get your point. I agreed with you. I concur with your assessment. You are right and I was wrong to post that poorly-constructed single sentence. I retract it whole-heartedly, and thanks to you, I rewrote that paragraph in my original document from which this post was excerpted. It is much clearer and more accurate thanks to this feedback. Darn helpful.
  13. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    I mean, since we're on the topic. Why not.
    What do you think of this carefully re-worded rewrite? Is it too bold a statement? I am actually seeking to be as honest and accurate as possible and clearly did not paraphrase that first draft well AT ALL.

    Not mentioning cancer at all would be the easy and safest way "out", but it also may result in not alerting someone in need of help that they *may* have an *option* that *might* be helpful if they *choose* to learn about this extremely old information.

    Do you think this addresses the plain facts of the situation, without making any claim or promise that could be misconstrued? I believe is merely a statement of commonly-known infos that are like 20-30 years old at this point in 2021... Im literally asking for it:

    "For many years in China, and more recently in the West, cancer patients have been taught to use Qigong exercises to stimulate the body’s natural defense mechanisms, and to develop a fighting spirit, which is essential in a healing crisis. Using regular Qigong exercise, patients may improve survival rates of some cancers by raising the activity of the immune system to a level at which advanced healing may take place, or so they may endure the rigors of Western treatment, such as chemotherapy and radiation. For this reason, acupuncture and other Chinese arts are being studied, recommended as “alternative” healing modalities, and used widely in clinics and hospitals. The acupuncture clinic is frequently adjacent to the oncology department in modern hospitals for this reason."
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    We seem to be talking past each other,

    Qi work, doesn't cure cancer, as you have already agreed, your new statement still implies that it does.

    "Using regular Qigong exercise, patients may improve survival rates of some cancers"

    Is not correct.

    The correct way to word things, would be like your link does

    How Reiki and Qigong Can Help Cancer Patients | Dana-Farber Cancer Institute

    "Patients have reported the practice eases muscles, reduces stress, boosts the immune system, and improves mood during treatment."

    "Cancer therapy can take a toll on one’s body and mind. Thankfully, there are a variety of integrative therapies that, together with traditional medicine, can help patients feel better during treatment."

    Can you see why these statements, and your statement mean very different things.
    David Silver, Dan Bian and axelb like this.
  15. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    Yes, agree, I see its better to be much more humble about the health-side of qigong in general, as results are vastly different for everyone. The practice isn't standardized, every teacher is different, every student's understanding is different, every class, every study uses a different program. Better to focus on the known positive mental benefits and let people "find" their way to deeper aspects of the health side if/when they need.

    Personally, for my OWN health and experience, I recommend the series called the "standing eight brocades" (ba duan jin) for people interested. Its considered one of the roots of "medical qigong" and has basically everything you need. (There is a sitting ba Duan jin too, but that's more of a preventative / maintenance routine and morning meditation.)

    There are dozens of versions of the series, because it's over 1000 years old, passed down verbally; its like that game telephone, where someone says at one end "I like cheese" and at the other end, it comes out "the dolphin is in the jacuzzi." But they're all just relaxed moving and quiet deep breathing for the most part; or sometimes "hard style" with dynamic tension.

    Its not about a specific "magic" movement...Anything can be practiced as qigong ultimately, whether skiing or standing still, so long as you meditate, relax, breathe more fully.
    Shaolin Europe posts a lot for free online, including Brocades Qigong:
  16. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    I like Shi Heng Yi and I do that version of Baduanjin, and he is giving a lot of training away for free too.

    Been taught several versions of Baduanjin over the years, one even from Yang Jwing Ming, but I like Shi Heng Yi's version best
    David Silver likes this.
  17. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    Yes, I have been super impressed with Shi Heng Yi as abbot and representative of Shaolin lately, and happy to see so much teaching online for free, including some more rare forms.
  18. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    I've never done BaDaunJin.

    My main qigong practice is in heaven-earth-man (NOTHING to do with Adam Mizner!!!), and occasionally some of the Yang Taiji qigong, though I'm not such a fan of it.
    David Silver likes this.
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I HATE this attitude. It implies that people who succumb to diseases must not have enough "fighting spirit" or else they'd survive their disease. Having had family get cancer, and die, and others get cancer, and survive, believe me the difference was not fighting spirit. Cancer isn't some sort of mugger or attacker.
    Now...I'm not discounting the benefits of a positive mindset in dealing with the rigours of treatment and illness but positive minded people die and people who have lost the will to live survive.
    Dan Bian, hewho, axelb and 4 others like this.
  20. David Silver

    David Silver Member

    Its true. I also have lost at this point countless people to cancer, and all went down fighting. Its not AT ALL meant to imply people who die didn't fight enough. It is just to repeat and remind what we all know - that we all have a better chance w positive attitude. It has a physiological effect. Im not a professional writer, only an enthusiast. But it is a fact that a fighting spirit is essential in a healing crisis.

    High Spirit also pertains to a technical aspect of qigong practice: qi, jing, shen. Qi is the energy that we use all day every day, Jing is the essence; the chemistry that acts as medium for energy to manifest, and Shen is the spirit; the willpower and morale that plays a role in mobilizing the circulation via our intention.

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