Qigong and Science

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by gerard, Jan 10, 2005.

  1. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Holy rusted metal, your right. My God Boris you've just presented the most airtight case for Chi I have ever seen! You'll be famous man, famous!

    *Please take the above comments with a rather sizeable pinch of salt.
     
  2. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Oh wow. And does that mean that when people yawn and other people then yawn, that's chi?

    Oooh, I've got a good one. Look at people in a restaurant, they all eat at roughly the same time!
     
  3. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Boris,

    Ever heard of body language? 'mirroring' is something that people do all the time - subconciously in most cases. Some people will do it conciously, if they are aware of it, to build a raport with the other person. In this case I would hazard a guess that these 2 are 'mirroring' in a subconcious attempt to show a united front and give the media and the watching world an image of togetherness. Is that so far fetched given the context of this picture and the personal history of this couple?

    I really fail to see where chi is involved in any of this. :bang:

    Also your assumption that the women in the foreground is the controller and the man in the backround is being controlled is a bit shaky IMO. In this photo the lady has no idea of the mans action. So how can there be intent on her part (Yi). There can be no 'chi' without 'yi' Right?!! :D

    If anything it is the man who is conciously/subconciously creating this effect of 'mirroring'.

    Regards
    Geo
     
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    twins

    However, in your defence Boris

    I have seen tests were sets of twins have been able to consistantly mirror their twins action (hand signals/drawing) whilst seperated ie. no visual contact.

    IMHO this doesn't fall into the realm of chi, more likely ESP or clairvoyance of some kind, and probably a phenomana exclusive to twins. What does this mean/prove in a wider context? I don't really know much on the subject, so I won't comment further - but it is a very interesting phenomena.
     
  5. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Interesting, where have you seen these tests? I assume that these are proper scientific tests rather than just the standard sensationalised television stuff, have you got more details of them?
     
  6. FATSAN

    FATSAN Valued Member

    Derren Brown does some very good demonstrations of manipulating people subconsciously using psychological techniques. The people who he uses in his demos do not understand the mechanisms at work and jump to the conclusion that something psychic is happening. Derren Brown is manipulating these people but he is doing this through a mixture of his awareness of queues that the person gives off and sending queues to the other person, however this is only achieved through the 5 senses. The same is probably true of most demonstrations of chi over distance. If theses 5 routes of access to the brain can be excluded as the means of achieving a given effect then there would be something worth considering in the case of chi.

    On the comment regarding twins who are often seen mirroring each other whilst in isolation - I don't think it is that surprising that two people who have probably grown up together, shared may of the same life experiences and have the same genetic code produce the same results to test experiments.
     
  7. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    :eek: you've caught me bunny.

    You are right I was reffering to the TV variety. In my previous post I was going to type 'tests' but didn't. Perhaps a case of my ego controlling my mind. Or a case of wanting to beleive, something many of us are guilty of from time to time in varying degrees.

    I have to admit that at the time, and subsequently I have been taken in by Derren Browns supposed phychological techniques. After some more digging around on the net it seems that Derren has been mis-advertising and misleading people to what it is he actually does.. In my defence I have to say that what he does is very convincing. Quite a few intelligent and prominent people in their fields have been duped by him - of which I'm not - prominent or intelligent that is...

    In the future I'll take my own advice and not believe everything that I see or hear at face value quite so readily - no matter how convincing.

    The following article sheds more light, it is by a Telegraph scientific journalist who was concerned that Derren Brown was useing pshychological science as a smoke screen, and went so far as to issue him with a challenge that was never taken up. http://www.simonsingh.com/Derren_Brown_Article.html

    I guess all this does is show once again that 'strange phenomena' can usually be explained away....In this case by Magic 'tricks'.
    He is well versed in phsycology and does use it in his act, just in a very clever way and not to the extent he'd have us beleive.

    Regards
    geo
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2005
  8. FATSAN

    FATSAN Valued Member

    In Derren's defence on the article that you linked to and thinking over what i have seen Derren Brown do; I am not sure that he claim his stunts are purley one thing or the other. Im also not sure that most people would believe that the level of accuracy he gets doing his mind reading techniques just by looking at the pupils of someones eyes is at all possible. At the end of the day he is producing a show that is supposed to be entertaing. He seems to make a few vague comments about what he is really doing and leaving people to make the conclusions themselves - in most cases incorrectly but i think he is quite aware of it and uses that to his advantage. The main thing with what he does do is point out that nothing of what he's doing is psychic but merely a careful manipulation of the senses and the environment. Even though the explanations he does provide can be just as misleading and full of smoke screens, but then thats showbusiness, his career would have been long over if he just laid it all out on the table in the first series.
     
  9. BorisPretovsky

    BorisPretovsky Banned Banned

    Mr BunnyRabbit. You think you are being sarcastic.

    What if I say to you that yes indeed both of those events are evidence of chi.

    What is your reply? I would be interested in hearing what you think other than the sarcastic comments. If you disbelieve what I say, why do you disbelieve what I say? Are you able to articulate it?

    What is your explanation for the phenomenon you describe? Accident? Coincidence? Just one of those things? Ya that's weird?
     
  10. BorisPretovsky

    BorisPretovsky Banned Banned

    Mr Geo. Let us take these ideas in order. Yes I have heard of mirroring. I think your paragraph is mostly based on the assumption that they are both trying to look good for the media. I suppose that is possible. I would ask you. What is mirroring? I do not mean two people doing the same thing. I mean why do they do it? Your position seems to be that each person calculates their movements down to the millisecond and to the joules of energy expended to accomplish the movement. Doesn't that sound far fetched? How could two people think in that much detail? Their faces would be screwed up in concentration at all of those calculations to match each others movements.

    You fail to see where chi is involved in this. Chi can behave like an energy field. There will be about 10 people jumping on me but it is just like the energy field around cartoon characters. Chi is involved because the man is within the energy field of the women. This means that he is affected by whatever her energy intends.

    I like the last one, it made me smile. You have made a goof I think. You correctly state that I think the woman is the controller. But then you goof and say the woman cannot see the man so how can she make him do something. Recall that I said that people consciously or unconsciously react to this phenomenon. The woman does not want the man to mimic her actions. She is reaching to her face for her own reasons. It is the man who is following the intent of the womans energy to reach to her face.

    Maybe control is a bad word because it implies purpose. To be clear, if a strong energy person does something, any weak energy person in the vicinity is likely to react. Not because the strong person wants them to, because the weak people have no choice but to follow the strong.
     
  11. BorisPretovsky

    BorisPretovsky Banned Banned

    Let me share a story with you guys. The story is supposed to make you think. It is a story an old african guy told to his class.

    He said "There is an old african legend of the man who is teaching the youngsters. They want to know what rythym is. He talks to them and explains to them but doesn't get anywhere. In frustration he gives up and suggests the go into the forest and pick some oranges.

    The kids and the teacher go into the forest and find some trees with some fresh tasty looking oranges and they grab a few of them. They then go back to the village where they can relax and enjoy them. They get back to camp and settle in to eat the oranges. The children are hungry so they devour the oranges. Peeling the skins off with the juices flying in the air. Finally the children finish all of the oranges. Then they all burp at the exact same time.

    The teacher looked at the children and said "That is rythym".

    What is the point of the story? What concept is the teacher trying to teach? Rythym obviously. What is hidden? What is not so obvious?
     
  12. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    My reply would be that if you're going to try and use chi to explain every day psychological phenomena, then don't use a word with so many supernatural and magical connotations. Its like saying that lightning is magic, when you know perfectly well that its caused by massive static buildup in storm clouds. All you're going to do is make yourself look foolish.

    ...well then, what is this energy field and why is it completely undetectable by any mechanism, even though we can devise a way to examine and test every sense the human brain possesses, often in more detail?
     
  13. MartialArtsSnob

    MartialArtsSnob New Member

    Bunny you know perfectly well that:
    1. You are the one who is assigning "Supernatural and magical connotations" to Chi.
    2. Lightning is magic.
    3. We have no choice but to look foolish, we are speaking a different language.
    "Every sense the human brain possesses" Oh come now bunny, surely there must be SOME things you don't yet know about yet.

    Check this out!
    http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/user/pan/pan.html
     
  14. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Just to throw into the mix, regarding the "science cannot detect Qi" arguement...

    From GM Wong Kiew Kit's book "Chi Kung For Health And Vitality"
    Some info on some of the experiments performed. http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/time/2002_YanXin_Qigong_JSE.pdf

    EDIT> Also -
    http://wongkk.com/answers/ans01b/jul01-3.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2005
  15. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Right, now when he actually gets tests done by a decent university or research group rather than some newspaper I'll believe it. Bear in mind that newspapers have reported everything from assassin conspiracies around Diana, to people giving birth after being impregnated by baby aliens.

    And looking at that supposedly scientific paper, I've got one thing to say. My cow died last night.

    Sight, sound, taste, scent, touch. We have instruments that can measure the entire spectrum of electromagnetic radiation, whereas the eye only picks up light between ultraviolet and infrared. We can measure the entire range of sound frequencies, wheras the human ear has a very limited range. A machine can detect a single molecule of scent, and can analyse taste chemicals. We have instruments that can measure forces more accurately than human estimation of touch ever will. Or sorry, are we talking about your mystical, unproven and untested sixth sense?
     
  16. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    My sympathies for the loss of your cow, but how does that relate to this issue?
    You wanted scientific research, i gave it to you. Now you want something else... Balls to the science of it. You either believe or you dont. Apparently you dont, so its your decision.
     
  17. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Does pre-cognition count as a sixth sense?

    I say this because a long while back I saw a test were people were shown pictures. The pictures were either highly stimulating or just mundane. And they were measuring the responses of the people, they found that the responses to the stimulating photos began before (nanoseconds) the picture was shown

    I know its anecdotal, but its all I remember

    Does anyone else know more on this subject?

    Regards geo
     
  18. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    It's a scientifically proven phenomenon - I think it's called "The Playboy Effect"

    :eek: :D :D
     
  19. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    You get that too? :D
     
  20. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    LMAO NZRic... oh so thats what that is... now I have an excuse to tell the mrs... ;)
     

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