Read into biomechanics, you'll find a lot of similarities between the internal practices you're talking about and the science of biomechanics. Basically the difference as far as I can tell is this, internal arts tend to use visualisation techniques to achieve the same ends as biomechanics does by knowing the science of how the body works and moves.
That definitely sounds like something that would interest me, can you recommend any books on the subject. I had a look on Amazon but all I got were mainly anatomy and sports books, I was hoping you knew about one that is more martially orientated. With regards to the visualization, we use it primarily in the beginner stages (though some schools don’t use them at all, I do though), the purpose is to train the intent, and turn the focus to the inside of the body, though other visualization techniques are used throughout practice to further train and supplement the intent. Once the intent is strong, one then uses it to learn to control the various parts of the body, including all the muscles, tendons, and joints, at higher levels also the throat, eyelids, testicles (in some schools). Once movements can be isolated and trained individually, through all the various motions they can produce, they are then strung together in various combinations to produce various sorts of strikes, blocks, and ways of moving. Generally the strikes are such, motion travels up in a sequential wave from the foot, knee, hip, waist, spine, shoulder, elbow, wrist, palm, fingers, this is then further refined, and the refining process is never ending. The classics say ‘feet, inches, hundred parts, thousand parts’, this generally means we keep dividing the body in to smaller sections and stringing the movements together to develop greater power, and with different properties for different combinations. We also train, central and peripheral perception (visual, audible, contact sensitivity), and the sates of mind associated with these, so that we can maintain the desired states under pressure and intensify the depth of their receptivity. These are very brief explanations though, there is quite a bit more to it, not complex, quite simple, just has to be learnt one at a time. I've had a look at kiniesology before, and that shares a lot of IMA principles as well.
I'm afraid that as far as I know there's no specific biomechanics books for martial arts, although I was considering going into the field in detail and trying to write one at some point while I was working on my degree. That was before I quit however. The sports ones tend to be okay, they usually cover basic movements, and the principles are simple enough to extend to martial arts. One of the major selling points that CKD tends to use, and that I know other arts do use, some without using the same name is sequential motion. For example to take a simple punch, the movement actually starts at the foot, with the hip moving almost at the same time, and the shoulder and arm moving last. The sequential movement means that you have your entire bodyweight and followthrough behind it (stunningly so with some people, often seems almost supernatural when done near-perfectly). I think we're on the same page, just calling it different things and coming from different sides.
Bunny, I think that you are correct. Part of the problem with the disscussion is that some people look around and see all of life and it's processes as "magic". Science has done a great job of looking into how this "magic" works, but it cannot say what it is. In the end we are all talking about the same things, unfortunatly a lot of people get hung up on their particular terms for them to the exclusion of anyone who speaks of these things differently. Snob
The problem with that view being that many proponents of 'chi' talk of it in terms of an esoteric energy that you can learn to manipulate producing pseudo-magical results. An attempt to redefine chi in terms of biomechanics looks suspiciously like an attempt to fit ideas about 'chi' into a modern world-view. Why? Our culture has a much more educated and objective view of these concepts.
Agreed, but "much more educated" dosn't mean "greater understanding of". SnobyesterdaysnobtodaysnobtomarrowMartialartsnobout!
Not really, you see if one has no idea how something works, one can consider it to be magical or what have you. Just like if you had no clue about microwaves, you would probably think they worked by magic. Whether you know how it works, or not, the microwave oven still works. A lot of people perceive ‘Chi’ to be mystical or magical, etc, but the thing with ‘Chi’ is, that feeling and intention are integral parts of it. Now if you did not know/realize that feeling/intention are necessary parts of ‘Chi’, nevertheless, you could still feel that which we call ‘Chi’, thus, you could still learn to move in specific ways. But, you can also do the same thing if you realize that ‘Chi’ is part of intention and feeling, and achieve the same ways of moving. Chi is interpreted in many contexts, in Chinese medicine, in describing universal phenomena, and various other frameworks. But, in internal martial arts, which are primarily a way of fighting, the context is also on fighting. The ‘Chi’ aspect is there to learn how to move in specific ways which greatly increase the force one can produce, redirect, and absorb. This is primarily done by using the ‘Chi’ and/or intention, whichever way you want to look at it, for gaining greater control of every muscle, tendon, ligament, etc in the body. Then by combing the various small/internal movements for various effects. If you really think that Internal Martial Arts are supposed to derive their power from magical sources, well, that just sounds ridiculous. I can see how people who don’t realize the connection described above could believe that it is magical, but this is due to lack of understanding and being genuinely impressed with the exercise. But, there are some other factors involved with it, primarily the increase in focus and relaxation, does make one more perceptive to various phenomena that previously went unnoticed, and hence this same result also furthers one ability to work on moving in the internal context. Internal martial arts also train the mind, specifically the peripheral and central vision, with intense yet relaxed focus, these states can feel very new, and magical to an individual with no previous ‘internal’ training, but it is just a matter of getting used to, and once one is used to it, one can normally go even deeper in to such states. If you don’t know how this is relevant to martial arts, please ask.
Chi can easily be proven, if you accept one aspect of chi is that one person can use it to control another, intentionally or unintentionally. I could take a video off the TV and show it to you. Got one from last week as a matter of fact. I can think of two others that will make you believe in chi if you allow them to. If you insist what you see is something else, that is what you will see.
Proven to be what exactly? If as you say Boris that chi can be easily proven, then why don't you do just that - I'm sure fame and fortune would'nt be far away. Don't always beleive what you see - especially off a video. Appearance is often deceiving. If you've felt it for yourself, that's great. At least for now there is no evidence that chi is a form of energy within the body that can be measured. But the effects can be prescribed to good body mechanics, mind/body integration, intent and/or a form of self hypnosis/mind control - have you ever seen Derren Brown? Anyone watching some of his mind control 'tricks' could easily mistake it for chi at work. He himself readily admits that what he does is not mystical at all. I am not saying that chi is mystical. It is conceivable that one day it could be shown to be a naturally occuring energy source within everyone that can be cultivated. I do 'feel' something myself through IMA, I just can't tell you exactly what it is with any degree of certainty. So until such time it is proven or I start knocking people over by shooting chi from my palms I will keep an open mind. All the best regards geo
So if we accept that chi is a specific thing that most people don't include in its definition, and that thing is basically manipulation of other people it can be proven. Hey, did you know magic can be proven, if you accept that magic is what turns on a computer.
There are people who can gain degrees of control of others through language. So by your definition the spoken word is an aspect of chi Sorry, but personally I don't like to talk too much in my tai chi class Perhaps you should define what you mean by chi, before offering your 'proof'
"If as you say Boris that chi can be easily proven, then why don't you do just that - I'm sure fame and fortune would'nt be far away" Why would I be famous for something that millions of people do every day? Your opinion is based on trusting the statements of scientists. They don't know what they are talking about so of course to them proving the existence of chi would seem "guaranteed to bring fame and fortune". Do you know of a website where I can post videos? Are you willing to accept my explanation for what you see? Do you have patience? If the first video does not convince you, are you willing to look at maybe 3 or 4 more before you begin to say very loudly that "this is all a bunch of fiddlesticks? Are you willing to ask a question about what you see instead of being derisory? To give you something to think about, please read the following. Karma looks out for me. She dropped this in my lap this morning. Pay very close attention to the final paragraph. ------------------------------------- An exorcism has been shown for the first time on British television, provoking outrage from religious groups. Channel 4 has screened "the deliverance" of a man called Colin who said he was possessed by evil spirits. Neuro-imaging technology was used to monitor the changes in his brain as the Reverend Trevor Newport performed the exorcism in front of a panel of religious and scientific observers in east London. Viewers watched Mr Newport, a minister with 20 years' experience of "deliverance", as he prayed over the man in an attempt to drive out "demons" that had possessed him for many years. Colin said later: "I feel that I have had demons in my life and that they have been delivered." The minister, who was trained in the Pentecostal Church 25 years ago, said: "A lot of people were perhaps expecting a more graphic demonstration - this is quite a normal deliverance." During the exorcism Colin was attached to an EEG machine - an electro-encephalograph - which measures the electrical activity in the brain. Dr Jonathan Bird, a neuro-psychiatrist at the Frenchay Hospital at Bristol, who studied the findings, said he was unable to say for certain what had prompted the changes in Colin's brain.
For not knowing what they are talking about they get alot more done than most exponents of Chi. I wonder if you sent this message to the internet via a chi powered computer... So wait basically it would seem here that your saying any video you post will not convince unless you accept your explanation of what is happening and watch it repeatedly, Im beginning to see why you might not become famous for proving Chi's existence. By the way if you go to www.yellowbamboo.com you'll be able to see some people being knocked over by chi in video's, now if I follow your formula it seems Chi has already been proven, after all they explain what they do quite clearly and thats what happens in the video- yep, Chi exists. Thats the difference you see, if a scientist says I have invented a mechanism that allows me to levitate he has to prove it and if his mechanism only worked when a group of his friends where filming him at his house you would quite rightly question why if the machine is real it needs such conditions to work. Agggh, Im sorry but this is infuriating you take a scientists admittance that he can't say for certain what caused certain changes in a brain to be proof that science has failed and is incapable of understanding such things sine obviously it was the work of demons. This is like the worst kind of Tabloid mentality! Watch some of Derren Brown's TV shows and you would be convinced that mind reading exists. I suggest that the change in Colins brain were because of his pyschology, prove me wrong... I doubt you can and if so then it would seem that your inability to prove me wrong following your kind of logic means that all mystical mumbo-jumbo is also nonsense and I have proven that pyschology is the only real way to understand the universe. (sigh) I actually have sympathy against a dismissive reductionist approach (I mean for god sake Im studying Buddhism at university ) but I really see no value in this tabloid style mystical nonsense. By the by, I dont think all proponents of Chi share this kind of mentality... Thank god...
Well MAS all I'm getting from this is that you seem to want to lump all skills and abilities that are a little extraordinary under the genaral definition of 'chi'. If I wanted to manipulate people with my linguistic skills, I'd go and study phsychology, hypnosis, body language, NLP etc.. and not necessarily IMA, although I am of the view that IMA can be of great benefit on understanding our mind/body on many levels, these are specialised areas where IMA does not specifically venture. Or maybe I'd give systema a go, as their approach to non physical work seems to come from that side of the fence and not internal energy cultivation as in C/IMA. Although they too have their own breathing/energy practices they dont claim it as the source of the 'beyond-physical' abilities that they are seemingly able to display. I commend you on your efforts though on this thread and others for exploring possible scientific explanations for the feelings of chi which for many of us are quite real. I wish I had a better grasp of science.... Also I feel there is another area which I feel could cross over into these areas- that of brainwaves - alpha, beta etc. - you know when you are going along your merry way and you suddenly get a tingle - you look - and someones there looking right back at you. It is my feeling that as we start to understand more about how our brains work and all the locked in potential of our minds starts to unravel, we will get closer to some of the answers that we seek. What I am attempting to get at though is this: through our IMA training we reach the state of feeling 'chi' through movement of weightedness, lower abdominal breathing and visualisations. So could it be that the sensations of chi that we feel be due to the first 2. Then we attribute it to being chi as cultivated from the heaven and earth energy of yin and yang due to our visualisation of it as being so. If we did not visualise it happening this way - would it feel like it was happening this way? I would like to finish by saying that either way be it 'mystical' lifeforce energy cultivation or just good old bodymechanics through visualation/self hypnosis - It doesn't matter (other than the curiousity factor) to me or to the end product - I know that it works for me. Just like prayer can provide positive effects whether you believe or not. And the effects of prayer neither prove or disprove the existance of god. Regards geo
Actually I lump all skills period natural and supernatural. It's the OTHER THAN NATURAL ones I don't buy into. You do mean your study of IMA don't you? Never heard of it, sorry. Thanks I agree, I just wish that people would stop pretending that we already understand everything already. No I don't think it would. I think that the relaxation and visualisations make us aware of SOMETHING, I won't call it Chi here so that people don't get their pantys in a wad. well said! Chi,itdoesabodygoodMartialartsnobout!
Hi! I just stopped by to say I could not find a webpage site. Just tried the place that InTheSpirit suggested. It locks up and won't work.
Somewhere back in this thread, 1 page or so, I said people could see the effects of chi all over. I offered to show a video from TV of the effects of Chi. I can't find a place to upload the video. I found a picture. There are two people in the picture doing the exact same thing. Are these people both doing the same thing because of coincidence? Or is Chi responsible? http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/963457/Coincidence.jpg I said you have to accept people can control other people for me to prove to you that there is such a thing as Chi. It is my claim that this photo shows the person in the back is weak and cannot control himself well. The person in the front is stronger so that person's energy is controlling the person in back. The person in back has no clue this is happening. They are both doing the same thing because of Chi, not because of coincidence.
