Qigong and Science

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by gerard, Jan 10, 2005.

  1. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

  2. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Well congratulations on making an interesting and entertaining thread on Chi. Having just read the 7 previous pages a few comments pop to mind...

    First off, its refreshing to note the polarised view of 'Western Science' vs. 'Eastern Mysticism' is still alive and well. I thought that viewing Eastern countries as places where magic and ancient wisdom was valued above science had lost most of its favour after the hippy movement but apparently not. What might be worth noting is that 'Western Science' has for a very long time not been specifically limited to the Western hemisphere (not sure if hemisphere is the right word but it sounds good). Science is science whether its practiced in China, Japan, Germany, England or wherever... thats why my brother is able to do some tests in a lab in Belfast then travel over to Tokyo and conduct further tests in a lab and explore the same issue. Its not Western science its just science. Even if you go to a lab in China (seeing as most people seem to think it is a special case) I think you'll find that they aren't operating with entirely different theories and machinery as there Western counterparts, in fact I would wager they even study research from (shock, horror) other parts of the world.

    Sure if you want to go back to where the scientific method came from you could probably make a case for calling it Western Science but I think its rather inaccurate to use that term now. It suggests that the only people who value such a method are Westerners which is clearly bunk.

    Secondly, on the issue of the churchs influence on 'Western Science' this would seem to be a rather non-issue. Most every sane person I know realises that science just like everything else in the West in the middle ages fell under the jurisdiction of religious authorities (Im not so certain about early scientific endeavours in the East). That is not however clearly the case now... Read some of Richard Dawkins books if you want to see how little scientists are held back by religious conservatism nowadays. To give you one example the aforementioned Richard Dawkins wrote a (very enjoyable) book called "the Selfish Gene" which offered an answer to the question of what the (biological) meaning of life is and how it arose. Whats this? A scientific theory that dares to offer an explanation for the 'why is there life and whats the point of it' question... If science had agreed to leave such questions alone this would seem to be an awkward book then.

    And on the original post, I have to chime in and agree with what has already been said. Imagine I posted a link to an article that Chi had been disproved by means of a large amount of famous mystic masters being convened to study it via meditation and personal experiments and the article stated that after 4 weeks of intensive contemplation the study had proved Chi didnt exist. Then added a comment to my post saying "oh by the way your not allowed to question the background to the article"... seems a bit ridiculous doesn't it?

    What masters? Why has the whole Chi-believing world not heard of this study and so on...
     
  3. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Very true- to see the east as somewhere where ignorance still prevails over science is a deeply bigotted view. In fact, some of the world's foremost scientists come from japan.

    It's not possible to prove a negative- then again, we don't need to. Until something resembling a proper, large-scale double-blind trial is conducted proving chi to exist (something I doubt will ever happen, and doubt even more strongly that it would prove that chi did exist after all), chi has to be assumed not to exist.
     
  4. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I think the main problem with these sorts of ‘Chi’ debates and studies is that there is no general consensus on what ‘Chi’ is, if there was perhaps it would be easier to separate the true from the false.

    ‘Chi’, is different things to different people.

    To me ‘Chi’ is a feeling. Just as anger and happiness are feelings, and I cant prove these feeling exist either, but I don’t have to, cause you can feel it for yourself, providing the correct internal and/or external stimulus is applied. So, in my opinion if an individual has not provided the correct internal and/or external stimulus, hence never experienced ‘Chi’ within my context it is perfectly reasonable, and even logical.

    The people I have trained, I made experience ‘Chi’ within the context of my description of it, and I’m sure I could repeat this with 99.9% of the human population, as long as they follow my instructions sincerely.

    So, to me, regardless of what anyone else thinks, unless they have some greater insight that I can subscribe to, ‘Chi’ exists, but only within my context. I have no thoughts, whether positive or negative, on other peoples ‘Chi’ paradigm, and if some Dr. X, is saying he can ‘Chi’ this and that on the other side of the planet, I’m not going to disagree or agree with them, as I have no such experience, hence any of my thoughts on their experience would be assumptions.

    But if Dr. X claims his experiment will do such and such, and no conclusive proof can be observed of such and such event, than that would make me think it’s either a bad experiment or Dr. X doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

    So back to my initial point, ‘there is no general consensus on what ‘Chi’ is’, in such case any experimentation or discussion on a phenomena which has no general description, is in my opinion a waste of time, and will end up much like a kiddie argument that often ensues when playing cops and robbers, i.e. ‘I shot you first’, ‘No, I shot you first’ an so forth.
     
  5. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Whatever. The people who believe in chi happen to be wrong- and chi is a kind of magical forcefield in eastern superstition.
     
  6. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member

    whatever

    may I ask what experience of training in Chinese arts, martial or otherwise you have, to come out with such an arrogant statement as though you know everything there is to know in this universe of ours?

    people said the same kind of things about atoms when they were first theorised. theyre saying it currently about antigravity, scalar energy and the 11 dimensions theorised by superstring theory, but that hasnt stopped Boeing working on it (antigravity) for several years now.

    because you havent had any experience of something is not reason to pronounce your opinions as fact. far more qualified people than you and I are devoting time, energy and money into this currently.

    they must feel it's worth studying to devote resources to it?

    ..probably not that common in the land of GLC though, i'll give u that... ;)
     
  7. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    then again, the existence of atoms, the superstring theory etc. has to do with advanced mathematics and more importantly empirical testing. No evidence exists for chi, and arguments for its existence are based on vague prejudices rather than fact.

    Who exactly is devoting resources- by which I mean actual research- to it?
    Practically none whatsoever- then again, I don't need to train in CMA to know that magical forcefields around people's bodies don't exist.
     
  8. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member

    faith

    if u refer to posts 48 & 58 in this thread i think ive already covered that?

    I dont know if that's exactly the phrase people would use to describe it :)

    I think I'd prefer to call it my "faith" as people seem to get more leeway with that word and not be challenged so much for far fetched sounding ideas.

    My "calling" came in a more tangible introduction to "the Force" than most religious callings I've heard described. it was more along these lines.


    http://www.shaolin.org.uk/en/chikung/2level.html

    It was in fact by the man in these videos. you could call him my "High Priest"

    Adequate demonstrations (...certainly in person, believe!) of the physical advantages in combat (Both Offensive & Defensive) enjoyed by fighters who can "energise" correctly.

    theres a thread about him in this forum here.

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14949

    really, ...far more plausible argument (IMO) for there being something else at work than mere biomechanics, than any religious argument I've ever heard.

    & I'm a believer due to being on the recieving end of one or two of those demonstrations in my time. it felt like being hit by a truck.

    if he'd just said, "...yea, i'm just hard?" :) ...i'd have believed him.

    but he explained how he does it, why should I disbelieve him? do you think he's either deluding himself or dishonest?

    all I'm saying is personally I'm always inclined to have some exposure if not understanding of a subject before declaring my opinions as fact.

    i think that's fair comment on what was after all a highly contraversial statement with massive implications to the whole of CMA made by your goodself?
     
  9. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    LOL, don’t you believe in magic? Haven't you seen 'Lord of the Rings'?

    That is quite an ignorant comment, then again if some one told me it was a magical force field, I would probably say the same thing.

    But, fortunately, there is nothing magical about it, and its not a force field. It's a matter of study, experience and understanding.

    The fact is, that this 'magic' stuff is used in higher level 'Shaolin' and 'Wudang' originated arts. Also, that in China, people such as China's emperors, Sun Yat Sen (founder of the republic of China), the 'Dowager' princess, and more recent Chinese political figures all employed internal martial artists for their superior fighting skills, should be a good indicator of martial ability. Furthermore, if you have no experience in internal training, and you've never crossed hands with a decent internal artist, well, it kind of relegates your comments to the sort of ignorant level that is not worth the bits and bytes that its written with. Also, why is it that there is even an IMA section in this forum. Anyway, my doors are open, you want to come down and train with me, if you give me two hours a day for 2 months, I guarantee that you'll be flushing down the toilet most of what you think you now know about martial arts.

    Otherwise, 'whatever', as you so eloquently put it, is quite the right phrase, I don’t loose anything by your ignorance, but I do get some entertainment out of it, thanks.
     
  10. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    !! :rolleyes:
     
  11. BorisPretovsky

    BorisPretovsky Banned Banned

    InThe Spirit, may I provide some advice?

    In every thread you post in, look at the spot under a person's post count.

    Then you must decide which is more important. Insisting on what you know is correct, or allowing falsehoods to stand and remaining a member of the forums?
     
  12. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Privet Boris,

    If you have a look at the relevant rules of posting for this forum, you will see that I am well within my rights to post as I did above. I believe this forum emulates a democratic structure, hence, if one abides to the rules, one may express their opinions freely and without reprisal from any party.
     
  13. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Neither actually, I think he's using visualisation techniques, which are an excellent way to improve biomechanics, which are much much more effective than most people think. Add to that the idea that he may be able to some degree to be able to overcome the self-imposed limitations on the human body through proper training, and there you go. None of it requires any mystical energy to actually exist.

    Here's the problem though, if we do cross hands with someone who claims to be a decent internal artist, and find that they are in fact just a normal person with no mystical energy then the chi believers start claiming that person wasn't an actual internal artist. Due to this I've yet to actually find a decent internal artist, though hopefully when I can actually get some money together I should be able to travel a bit more to meet them. Until its decided that they're not decent internal artists anyway.

    I honestly don't know what you're talking about here. It is perfectly allowable to disagree with a moderator's opinions, you're even allowed to disagree with their moderation techniques although its preferred if you do that by PM to try and sort it out. We're not fascists.

    I don't know what forums you've been on before to get the idea that mods will ban anyone who disagrees with them, but this isn't like that. Sure, we'll argue with people who disagree with us, but there's nothing personal in it, and there's certainly no reason to ban except violation of forum rules.
     
  14. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    Wow... lots of mind boggling stuff here... the trouble I think is that Qi has meant by the classics etc has been mis-interpreted by many... IMHO it was meant to describe things like blood flow, the bodys biological processes and the like... the more I read the more this seems the case... no mysticism and certainly no magic... in fact as I read more and more of the Chinese classics (eg taiji classics, dao de jing, yi jing etc) the more apparant that a majority mystified them... and in fact there is nothing mystical at all about them...
     
  15. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    A couple of questions...

    What recent Chinese political figures have employed internal martial artists for the superior fighting skills? I was under the impression that the Chinese army was at the stage where they mainly relied on guns... but if your talking about bodyguards, if Tony Blair employed a bodyguard who taught Tae Bo does that mean Tae Bo must be a deadly martial art or does it just suggest that someone who does Tae Bo could conceivably also be a good fighter? Furthermore, if Chinese history is to be quoted then what about the Boxers rebellion? Seems there were quite a lot of internal martial artists and priests around then who believed that their knowledge of chi and magic could make them impervious to bullets. No doubt the internal martial artists who were involved in the Boxers rebellion were not the true internal martial artists and those who were hired by politicians were the real deal but its quite frustrating the way if you view history like that you can twist anything to support your opinions. I mean it might be worth noticing that astrology has also played a prominent role in many political careers in the past (and the present) in the East and West so isn't this also proof that astrologers actually must in some ways be able to predict the future, I mean afterall emperors used them!

    Before I get bashed for being an unspiritual materialistic Westerner I actually have no desire to knock internal martial arts or there practitioners Im just not a fan of people appealing to romanticised Eastern history to justify their claims.
     
  16. MartialArtsSnob

    MartialArtsSnob New Member

    Mind bogglingly simple isn't it. The only people I hear saying "Mystical force" are the people who don't get it. Once you realize what they are trying to talk about Surprise, Surprise! It's not mystical anymore. In fact it is so obvious and plain as day that you wonder what all the fuss was about. The biggest mistake is when people set out to find this "force" and "tap into it". This search goes nowhere and they dismiss it. The truth is that it was there all the time, nothing strange or alien. It is so familliar in fact that it goes unoticed, like a ring or a watch.

    ChiChiChiChiChiChiChiChiChiChiChiChiChiChiMartialartsnobout! :p
     
  17. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    If you do cross hands with an IMA’ist, unless they tell you that they are an IMA practitioner, or if your familiar with their art, you will not be able to tell the difference. Personally, the first time this happened to me, the only strange thing that I noticed was that the person was generating much too much power and speed for their size and age, it not as if I was being blasted with mysterious flying Qi balls, which were rotting my organs.

    The thing is that ‘Qi’ is not a mystical energy, it is a term ascribed to a feeling that is brought about through persistent and correct practice of IMA’s and associated disciplines. Breath, intention, external & internal movements and environment, and various combinations of these and other phenomena, under the correct state of mind, will produce feelings which can be called ‘Qi’. The various combinations of these phenomena give rise to differentiation of ‘Qi’, in to ‘yin’ and ‘yang’, and then further in to various types of ‘Jing’ and ‘Shen’. These various coordination can produce a multitude of movements which are otherwise much more difficult, if not impossible to train. Hence, to the practitioner, having these associations and differentiations of IMA phenomena is the only simple way to describe a specific IMA process. Thus, to a non-IMA practitioner who hears something like ‘a Qi strike’, the statement seems bizarre as if its something out of a ‘Star Wars’ film. Whereas, to some IMA practitioners it seems perfectly reasonable, and they can break down if needed the various aspects of such techniques. Then again, there are also individuals, who perceive this feeling of ‘Qi’, which is a result of correct training as a force independent of physical laws etc (i.e. mystical energy). The reason behind this is the overwhelmingly new and exciting prospect of feeling something which was previously hidden, a bit hard to understand without experience, but something akin to finding the feeling of ‘joy’ for the first time. Hence, I think you should be able to understand why there is such confusion between various IMA’ists and the IMA and EMA community. In essence Qi is a training tool, a terminology, a feeling, and a framework that is used to describe various techniques/process in IMA’s. Anyway that’s my thoughts.
     
  18. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member

    interesting idea. i would say IMO to "some degree" he's overcome just about every limitation of biomechanics as applied to combat there is.

    but the only people calling it "mystical" here are the non-believers.

     
  19. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Wow. Grandmaster Choi of CKD is an internal martial arts master and I never knew it. I'm stunned!

    Will do, but could you PM me the details again, I kind of wiped all of my messages when my inbox got full?
     
  20. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    As said previously, its not magic, many high level martial artists can do things similar to high level internal martial artists. Take for example O-Sensei Ueshiba, could barely walk in his old age, but could still throw people around like rag dolls. Though I have seen high level internal martial artist do things that I have not seen elsewhere, though that may be cause I have not met many high level martial artist. Besides, many martial artists that have practiced their arts for very extended periods of time, can see deeper in to the essence of these arts, which is something internal martial arts is based on, the study begins with the deeper essence, the underlying principles. My point is, at the end of the day a punch is a punch, but if you can see it all the way through to its deepest aspects, you can work your way up and make it a lot more powerful. Hence, it is not at all a surprise to me, that you experience the same thing with the master you mention. In fact I have read many interviews with high level external martial artist that mention that real power is soft, a principle also found in IMA. ts.
     

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