Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Libraquan, Mar 29, 2007.
I think that your comments, thecycle, are completely out of order.
I dont... and I dont attribute everything explained by qi to physics, but I was making a comment on another post by the cycle... as to why so many try to attribute the term qi to something wonderful and mystical... weeeeelll I personally feel that its down to insecurity and the search to believe in something more or just something really... perhaps religion doesnt float their boat, perhaps they dont believe in themselves or the friends or family... I also believe that all the terms used, eg draw energy to the dantian are aids to help visualise and realise the goal of the training... especially with working with the centre of gravity, body connection and function etc... but then I guess I am a bit of a sceptic...
Visage... I had a wee chuckle at your comment there as tbh it seems to me that the cycle is more deserving of that title... most others have thus far in this thread held fairly decent debates...
Personally for me, Qi is physics and more. Take for example two magnets both positive and negative, the "energy" that attracts them is magnetic. This is term we use in the west. We could of just as easily termed it Qi that attracts magnets. Same goes for electric impulses, radio waves etc. These are all different types of energy, but used in a western terms, if the role was reversed we could of just as easily said it is Qi impulses and Qi waves.
Qi in it's most basic form is energy, though even Qigong states there are different types of energy. Some of the studies done on TRUE Qigong masters show they are emitting magnetic, electrical, and heat waves or energy. This is something we are able to measure.
The human body itself is nothing but a collection of these eletrical impulses sent between cells. We can feel eletrical energy we all know this, with the proper amount of training why could we not feel this electrical energy within our own bodies? With even more training why could we not feel this in other's bodies? We as the human race have already harnessed the power of these electrical impulses, radio waves etc. Granted it is through the use of machines, though why could we not possible harness these same energies (even when they are present within our own bodies) to achieve other things?
I mean what are you doing when you are changing your way of thinking from sad to happy? Or from angry to love? You are manipulating the energy of your cells to release other hormones, i.e. serotonin etc...to also chemically change your body. I think many of these ancient images and visualizations per what you described above, is similar to the muscle training we do in MA. Rather you are training your mind to work in accordance with your body on even a cellular level. Thus, causing cells to react and create Qi or energy.
We know that a Tai Chi punch (or any other manuever) requires the use of the entire body, "One part moves every part moves." Though I don't think of this phrase solely on the physical and muscular level. I also believes it includes the mind and controlling the reaction of even the other systems, i.e. nervous, cardiovascular, respiratory, skeletal, all the way down to the mind and cells. Thus when you execute said manuever you are truly executing it with EVERY part of you.
Now, it is no secret I do believe there are people that do have "supernatural" powers. My personal idea behind this is that they could have harnessed the proposed theory above to such an extent as to be able to activate the mind all at once. Similar to one thing CK and I touched on before, CK was great to point out that we only use 10% of our minds is a myth. However, it never did state that we ever use our entire mind at once. Rather separate areas fire according to certain stimuli, what if through these meditations and Qigong one is able to harness the brain in such a way as to be able to fire all this Qi, or cellular energy at once?
Thus, we are not truly creating anything truly mystical, we are using our bodies, mind and spirit to their fullest capacity. We are only learning to use everything that God, or any other term for creator, gave us. My previous Tai Chi master would love to do Qigong and he knew it was the only thing that had kept him out of a wheelchair for years after he was supposed to be in one. When he practiced and I practiced with him, there would be times when all of the sudden he would exclaim "Wow, the hand of god just came down and touched me! I feel great!"
So, not to single you out JK, but reading some of your previous posts I completely respect where you are coming from and understand. I just feel that because people try to make themselves seem godly (which from my own exp. are most of the charlatans) they are doing a diservice to all of us that practice this art. Most true Masters I have studied with, never claim to have these "supernatural" powers, however I have known them to do things that cannot be explained in conventional terms. These same masters often tell me, these powers are pitfalls designed to entertain and entrap the weak spirited as they are still powers of the physical world. In short we never practice to develop these powers, these powers are merely a by product of training, things one should not get caught up in. Just as in MA you train for a punch, you don't solely train for this "end all be all" punch, you don't stagnate because you learned it you move on.
The qi you describe is completely different from the qi Onyomi describes - I have less trouble with they way he describes it.
I too have escaped being confined to a wheelchair - when I began a decade a go, the specialist wanted to fuse my hip joint completely as there was not enough healthy bone to take a replacement. Actual physical practice has helped me - hard training - being thrown around on a solid floor weekend after weekend. In addition to this, stretching and moving. No qi. So-called "internal" martial artists make massive claims for just good physical training. Sure, some teachers are better than others - if a supposedly "external" teacher doesn't care about your knee joints, he's just a bad teacher. Most of my teachers have cared about how the body is put together from a sound, physiological perspective.
We won't agree on qi - sorry. Unlike thecycle, I do want solid concrete answers. I don't have time to keep questioning the nature of reality.
I had an open mind towards qi, reiki, TCM, acupuncture, Yoga, pranayama, meditation, qigong etc. etc. for many years (almost 30). They've all had their chance and failed. The show's over.
Seriously though, think about it this way. Imagine someone had been to church regularly for 30 years and never once really been convinced about the existence of God. Maybe they'd felt good at times, bad at others, and nothing much at all a lot of the time. Who in the "internal arts" community would encourage them to keep going to church and keep trying to get the faith?
I am glad to hear you were able to heal and I agree that teachers should be concerned with the physical health of students. Though I want to point out I am NOT trying to convince anyone about Qi. I don't care if anyone believes me or not, I have taken the topic of this thread to believe that people are looking for explanations, ideas, opinions etc. We are achieving this, CK and I are going back and forth with discussion showing causes for either. It is not meant (I am unsure for CK) to convince people one or the other but to give them a chance to think for themselves.
As for your past belief, I understand, this happens. I have had people come to the people I study with and say they were taught this mumbo jumbo only to be shown true Qi. Remember there are a lot of people that practice said exercises, meditation, Qigong, acupuncture, but few who truly DO these things.
Chinese proverb: "There are as many people that practice Tai Chi Chuan as there are hairs on an ox. There are as many people that DO Tai Chi Chuan as the ox has horns."
I am sorry if you did not experience good things with these practitioners. Just because of bad experience with some (I know you mentioned over 30 years so I would have hoped you met someone sincere) you should not discount all things.
Per the edit: for us it was different experiences. I did go and do the whole church thing for many years and never felt nothing. It was not until I found Qigong and Tai Chi chuan that I felt complete and whole. I am not one saying that these things are for everyone, there is no great "cure all" or even superior anything. We can agree to disagree and still have respect for one another.
If your referring to his comments about me I wouldn't worry about . It would take alot more than that to upset me!
1. It's difficult to be loud on a message board but I do stand up for what I think is the truth (with a little 't') and I do argue against things which are presented badly or I know to be untrue. I also am quite confident but if you want to know a secret I'm also quite confident that I can be totally wrong! I've thought about my views long and hard generally before I post though and so I'm not going to accept I'm totally wrong till I have my position refuted well by someone and I'm not going to believe what they say unless they have some respectable evidence which I can check out myself.
Anyway, I'm getting off track I wanted to say nobody is going to 'listen to me because I'm loud and confident'... I'm not here to teach people. I'm here to discuss things and if people happen to take something from the discussion well and good I know I do but it's not my goal to teach people nor do I think people read my posts thinking about learning something. So there's that.
2. People are not the sheep you portray them to be- I like to think that if anyone was truly interested in a topic they would do the research themselves and find out what they think. I know when I see someone who is making good arguments about a topic I find interesting on MAP I look into the issue and the sources they have quoted (I've done that with Taoquan for instance and I actually enjoy the debate!) and see for myself and depending on the topic I might even go try something out for myself as was the case with BJJ. I don't have the kind of influence your ascribing to me and nor do I think people would change their views purely because I say something.
We're also not alike in that I unlike you don't believe in humans possesing supernatural powers. Maybe it is this right brain, left brain business but personally I think it has more to do with gullibility. Who knows?
Have you ever considered the possibility that your totally wrong by the way? Ever thought what if all this stuff I believe in IS actually not true? Or do you 100% no matter what anyone else says or anything else you ever find out know that you are right? I'm just curious...
I am a limited person by the way, I've got lots of limitations I'd love to overcome but I'm pretty sure I'm not limited by not believing in what you do. In fact I'd have to close my brain off to a whole lot of things in order to believe in what you do so much obliged for the concern but trust me I'll be fine!
I'm not offended, I like to hope you believe what you say otherwise you'd be an even worse fool and if you believe the kind of things you say then obviously someone like me is going to seem very silly to you. To be honest though I don't really see myself as just one of the herd (who does see themselves as that?) but despite this if everything you say is true about powerful people and pyschics I think its probably a good thing I don't have pyschic abilities. At least now I can sleep soundly without worrying about when the FBI are gonna find out I can control other peoples bodies with my thoughts...
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