Qi Questions

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Libraquan, Mar 29, 2007.

  1. Sandus

    Sandus Moved Himself On

    I agree with the sentiment behind this, if not the outright statement. We apply validity based on what we know to be true. This is how we analyze everything in life. If personal experience or schooling dictates that something is impossible, it usually is.

    If we accept everything to be truth, just in case it might be, we are being irresponsible. I'm not saying you should walk into everything with incredulity. But I do believe that forsaking scientific knowledge in favor of a scientifically unproven belief system sounds an awful lot like religion itself.

    I believe in keeping an open mind about everything until you gather enough information to lead you one way or another.
  2. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Thanks for the input here and to an extent you are right about the cynicism. This is a point in my life that I have reached now, my teacher even stated that I am at a point to where I am conflicted with my beliefs and what I know to be true. So many posts of mine are currently back and forth here, it is good you picked up on this.
    Though, I have thrown away much of my original "beliefs" though I don't feel I can call them beliefs as I continue to grow in Kung Fu I have found I never truly believed them to begin with. I am rather changing my own thoughts and thinking from what others have told me, in essence removing filters.
    Someone once told me this story:
    10-15 years ago they were at a shamanism seminar where they were working with Telekinesis. Everyone there had a string with a feather on the end of it and the objective was to let the feather remain hanging, while gradually you were to bring the feather to the palm of your hand. Everyone was concentrating and getting frustrated with no results. The teacher of the class smiled then and went and got his 5 year old kid. He asked the kid to demonstrate this and the kid grabbed one of the strings and feathers and was able to immediatly pull the feather to his hand.
    The instructor of the class then explained that because the child had never been told this was not possible the child was able to achieve the seemingly impossible. He then mentioned something similar to your quote above, with society and religions and family telling us things that are and are not possible.

    I personally suppose some of my cynicism comes from my own character, in that I like to try to respect everyone's views and know they will not match my own. I try to learn from eveyone I can, though I also feel that my own ideas should not be forced upon someone else.
    Even though many say that Qi does not and cannot exist without proof I know it does, this is more than enough for me. :D
  3. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I appreciate the sentiment of checking out what you've been told/taught Taoquan but do you ever get the feeling that the people who are talking abouting throwing away their conditioning are usually just replacing it with another form of conditioning?

    If I was to base everything on my own experience I wouldn't believe in atoms... I've never seen one afterall and I can't 'feel' an atom. Yet it doesn't seem entirely sensible to me to dismiss all the progress humanity and science has made just because I wasn't involved with the research personally.

    The telekensis story is also... to be polite... extremely questionable. If just one person could demonstrate telekinesis under scientifc conditions they would not only be a millionaire but they would probably also win a nobel prize and cause the scientific world to take such phenomena seriously. So why hasn't just one person been able to do this? It could be a grand conspiracy or it could just be that humans can't perform such feats.
  4. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Yes, conditioning by it's very nature is of course conditioning. It is up to the individual how one should be "conditioned"

    2) You are right, I am not dismissing science and it's accomplishments. However, if the same could be said for an atom the same could be said for Qi or any other supernatural power. Just because you cannot see it, or do it (just like you cannot see atoms) does not mean there is not existence of such things. Yes man has been around for a long time and to explain many "odd" things they came up with different perspectives on what they were. Spirits, Qi, gods etc...just because science cannot prove that they exist does not mean it does not. There are many scientific theories out there that are exactly that, theories, they cannot be proven to any context, i.e. time travel etc...Though they made theories based on what seemed to work out. Just as ancient man did, did all of these theories and beliefs pan out? Not all, but some are still there i.e. Qi, that cannot yet be completely disproven by science.
    Personally for me, it makes little since to ask people to prove supernatural powers and say just cause they cannot it does not exist. With this reasoning it would only be fair to say that science has to prove without any doubt that people cannot do this.

    3) Personally for me, for this very reason we are having this discussion if I were one of these people why would I want to prove it? There are obviously still going to be naysayers and people out there that would call me a fraud irregardless of whatever award I won. Still people would think me nuts and crazy and then I would be under "The public eye" or even worse put on some pedastal and treated as some god among men. Or I could possibly run a huge smattering of tests for much of my life as people try to prove or disprove that I could do such things. What is the point to that? Just to make a believer out of a few more people?
    If Jesus (Buddha, or whomever else) were to come back and be born again and claimed these same outrageous claims, would we as humanity have faith? or would we want to scrutinize and disbelief and put him through "tests." What if he/she were to pass these tests? Then would we have faith or would we think the tests and science wrong?
    From my point of view in this society technology and science has done some amazing things and saved many lives. However, to an extent I also fear we are becoming too reliant upon machines and technology, to where we are entering a state of "Spiritual laziness" A state where few people are driven to question anything out of a scientific or skeptical eye. Science cannot yet prove we have a soul, yet most major religions claim such, so who is right there?
    A certain amount of faith is needed to live life, no matter what the faith is in. You have more of a faith in science and hard facts, I appreciate and respect this, I have a faith in intuition and spirit. Two different thoughts within the same world, to me faith and intuition are science and they make sense to me.
  5. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I think if Jesus came back, firstly he wouldn't be doing "telekinesis" tricks or making any claims about being able to heal anyone - he might direct them back to God so their faith could heal them though. I don't think qi would get a look in.
  6. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Not exactly because while I was not involved in the research personally I know that theories about atoms are based on scientific evidence. Hard evidence from experiments and observations that have been repeatedly tested by multiple research teams. Theories based on these results have also been through many attempted refutations and indeed with the advent of quantum physics there was alot changed about how we perceived an atom. Not to mention that in a sense atoms can be 'observed' with extremely powerful microscopes such as a scanning tunneling microscope. This is different from Qi or belief in other supernatural powers because supernatural powers by their very definition will conflict with what we know to be the natural operation of the world and Qi is a pre-scientific belief to me in much the same band as the 4 humors. Has Qi theory updated in the modern period with new discoveries? or is it much the same as it always has been?

    This is a very poor excuse you just discussed how a child was used to demonstrate telekinesis to a group of people who were frustrated and unable to do it. Why bother with that if there is no need to prove anything to anyone? As for why you would want to prove it how about because you could use the money to set up schools or charities relating to your super powers. You could make the whole world more aware and open to the possibilities available to man. You could finally lend credibility to claims which have never before been able to produce credible results under scientific conditions. And I could go on. The notion that nobody with pyschic powers not even one on the earth would step forward and be able to prove their powers because they don't want the hassle is silly. People claiming pyschic powers are very rarely wilting roses and even if you suggest that the genuine masters are I'm sure there would be one who could just for a few days come and rock the core of the scientific world by demonstrating his super powers. Also, I sincerely doubt that if you could prove your powers under scientific conditions hence winning you automatically the 1 million from the RANDI foundation and won a nobel prize that people would consider you insane. That would be the whole point people wouldn't be able to ignore what your saying because you proved it and under conditions were it couldn't just be a trick.

    Qi cannot be disproven because no-one has made any claims to what it is beyond vague definitions and there are very rarely any predictions made by Qi adherents that could be tested and thus disprove or prove Qi. Your also missing the point of the scientific method it's not up to science to disprove every wacky claim out there, who has the time? The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. Science cannot also disprove that there are not invisible pink elephants undetectable by scientific instruments floating around making people sick if I was to follow your argument that would then prove my theory must have some truth to it simply because science cannot disprove it.

    Personally I'd say science and early Buddhism. As much as I would prefer to believe that I do have a soul I don't think the evidence supports such a thing. Lots of people believing something doesn't make something true and this is especially the case with religions!

    The first time round Jesus and the Buddha performed miracles all the time to convince people, help people or just for fun why wouldn't they do it this time? Not to mention that the Buddha generally wasn't so big on advocating faith so I'm sure he would be pleased that people had taken his words to heart and were scrutinising things rather than just accepting others claims.

    Speaking for myself if someone claimed to be able say to perform telekinesis and demonstrated it a few times under proper scientific conditions and no trickery was found then I would accept it because then there would be evidence for it. In our discussion you generally seem to argue that you believe in things because of the amazing things you have witnessed not simply because you have faith so it seems you require evidence too but are critical when others ask for better evidence. Surely what would require the most faith is to believe in something you haven't seen and have no evidence for? If your argument is that faith is good shouldn't you believing those kind of things rather than things because you've experienced them?

    I appreciate the sentiment and I do realise I'm not going to convince you Taoquan but I think debate on these kind of points can be fruitful for both sides. For me it's not really a matter of creating a dichotomy between things like science vs. spirit it's a dichotomy between what is real vs. unreal and what has been investigated properly vs. what has been accepted as true. I don't see things like the 4 humors as part of the real world as they have been proven wrong- though to be sure I understand that people had reasons for believing in the 4 humors heck what they saw with their own eyes even supported what they believed!
  7. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    1) It has updated, with Qi theory people often make the mistake of using Qi as a general "umbrella" term. You have to remember in Qi theory there are different types of Qi, Yin and Yang for an example. You throw in the 8 trigrams and 64 hexagrams this involves millions of combinations of Yin and yang and Qi theory ranging from simplified binary number (101010) to an even grander scale of embryo development. For example early Taoist thought involved the theory of the one created the two (yin and yang), two created the three (heaven, earth and man) and three created myriad things. This part is fairly well known.
    However, in embryo development it continues with the 8 trigrams and integrating this into an embryo. You wuji starts as a zygote (1 zygote), this in turn (through modern science) we know divides into two blastomeres (yin and yang), then it divides again, into 4 blastomeres giving birth to the 4 phases (tai yin, shao yang, shao yin, tai yang). After this division it divides to 8 blastomeres, or a Morula (8 trigrams), then into a larger version of Morula adding up to the magic circle (the numbers assigned to each trigram, when added up always equal 15 no matter which way you add them). finally into a blastula and finishing with the 64 hexagrams.
    This is an ancient Taoist belief on the formation of life and much of it fits scientifically. Though generally not well known because we get the "watered" down western version of Taoism. With this you combine the theory of 5 elements and many occurences ancient Taoists we able to make even more matches with what modern science now confirms. Check this site out:
    http://www.homeo-folly.com/Miracle.htm (this one is about Dr. Kim Bong Han, who theorizes he may have found "meridians" that seem to act like the nervous system, and follow traditional acupuncture points)
    You have to remember that most of these doctors have to travel to another country to do such studies. For the most part the FDA and AMA are not concerned with these alternative therapies because we are literally taking "their piece of the pie" in 2005 it was estimated that americans spend nearly 2 billion dollars on alternative therapies. It is a competition to them, there are schools currently in California that are offering MDs a semester of Acupuncture and a semester of Herbs so they can say they know of it.
    This is far shy of our 3000 hours we spend learning the medicine and most programs of ours are modeled after China's thus incorporating, pharmacology, A&P, biochem, microbiology, western pathology etc.
    This is a large reason you don't see many studies of such getting funded in the US.

    2) For me I feel it is a valid excuse. If these people are already helping people with their "powers" what need do they have for 1 million dollars? or even a Noble prize? They are already doing what they love and are helping people on top of that. Why should they want to be scrutinized, I admit for every 10 charlatans out there, there may only be 1 true practitioner (maybe even a greater number of charlatans) yet when they study one person who does have some ability to do these things it is dismissed. If it turned out to be only 1 person in the entire world's population that could prove all these claims what would become of him/her? Everyone would want to learn from them, study them, give them all this money to heal them, it would make this person the "cure-all". To me that would suck, your life would be over, forever under scrutiny.

    3) See here is your own personal dichotomy imo (not meant to be rude here :D ) but you mention that you would like to believe you have a soul. Yet because you cannot let go of your logical mind, you push aside one of your beliefs, this merely then becomes a question of what is more important to you your own beliefs or your logic? Do you study your MA because logically it is the the best art? or do you believe you have the best art for you? Scientifically your art could be worse for punching power etc. but because you enjoy it and feel it is the best for you it is. I just want to point out a logical mind is great, but it also has it's limitations just like everything else ;)

    4) Buddha's non advocating faith aside, there were and are still people that don't believe that what they did (then) is/was true. The stories we hear are still not believed by many, but they are believed by some and some of these same people are the same ones that say supernatural things cannot exist. They are at a kind of fighting match with beliefs and logic. I feel it is important to have both, to have that balance, but one should not limit themselves to either.

    5) Per our discussions I have not ever truly revealed all that I believe. I personally feel anything is truly possible and that we as man have a great arrogance that we are the end all be all. This simply is not true, for even with our extended amount of vast knowledge and technology we still cannot do things that nature itself can achieve. So out of this simple idea whose to say there is not something even greater that we cannot comprehend because of said arrogance? We think we harness time to an extent merely because we can track it with numbers, when reality is we have no idea about time. We cannot begin to fathom the 4th dimension of time.
    Though man is an amazing creature and when he/she wills it, I personally feel they can combine the logic mind we were given with our inherent and natural ability of spirit that was also given to us to achieve great things. Simply put I believe even in things I have not seen or experienced, I also choose not to pass judgement on the person or persons claiming such things b/c I have not exp. it.
    If a person claims telekinesis, I believe that it is very possible this person could do it. However, I will not say this person does it and is the real deal without me first exp. it b/c I would then be misleading people. This is how I feel the balance of logical and belief come into play, I know others will tend to disagree, but that is what makes us individuals.
    I am sorry if you feel I am being overly critical, but the same could be said for you as well. You ask for great things to be achieved, when in reality there are few people in the world that could achieve such great things you demand i.e. telekinesis, mind control, invisibility...whatever. However, there are many that could do minor things i.e. acupuncture, Qigong, that everyone can learn a basic form of. So while I tend to belief in the more "supernatural" phenomenon I will tend to be critical of others who state otherwise, just as you are critical of me. Though as you stated you feel this is a healthy dichotomy and I agree with you there, for both are ulitmately needed. If we deny the logical we are also denying a gift that we have received, same can be said for our spirit.

    6) I mentioned this above, yet careful with the terms what is real vs. unreal. One person's real is another's unreal as shown in our discussion :D

    a pleasure as always CK
  8. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Get back to you later Taoquan after I've had a proper think thanks for the response!
  9. thecycle

    thecycle Banned Banned

    I can never understand people like you CKava. You are so certain you know everything. Certain enough to accuse others of rambling when they are trying to be helpful. Yet for someone who is so knowledgeable, you and the others like you always miss the obvious because your kung fu training is lacking. You learn about kicking and punching instead of learning about people, psychology and the mind.

    What is psychic ability in raw terms? Psychic ability is power. These people have a power that others do not.

    What is human society about? Human society is about people fighting each other for power.

    If someone who has power learns of a person with psychic abilities who threatens his power, what do you think the result would be?

    The person with power will kill the person with psychic abilities. It is the most obvious thing in the world. Make a human being afraid, like telling them you can read their mind, and they will want to kill you because they are afraid.

    Psychic phenomenon are not publically discussed and verified because the people who do not have psychic powers become afraid, go crazy, form a lynch mob and try to kill the person with psychic powers.

    Think about it. Think about anything that gives a person power. How about a gun? What does society do with a person who has a gun? They call the police to come and get this dangerous man who has the power of the gun.

    What is the difference between the power of the gun and the power of psychic ability? Either one can be used to control others and to force them to obey you.

    Cynical and unaware of the different reactions of different people.

    If I come to you and I say "Hi friend! I want to tell you about this wonderful thing that is called Chi! It will make you healthy and strong!".

    And your reply is "I don't believe in that. That is stupid. Science proved there is no such thing. I don't respect you and I do not want to listen to you".

    I think it is common sense that the person who, for no reason other than they are good hearted, approached you and tried to help you would turn around and walk away from an attitude such as yours?

    Who wants to give christmas presents to a negative person who is a complainer and personally insulting?
  10. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Bwah hah hah hah hah hah.
    Aw man that must be post of the month. Straight out of a 50s sci-fi schlok.
    Secret psychic martial arts conspiracy to hide the true power of Qi. Maybe they aren't really human but aliens among us with abilities and we are being shown the way to true enlightenment for $10 a session.

    The Bear.
  11. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    One is real and dangerous whether you know it is there or not...

    the other is made up and dangerous only in the sense of people believing it exists.

    I have to say that from your tone on this and the reeling silk thread, you are not coming across as someone who wants to give us all Christmas presents, but as a rather arrogant and rude person who just wants to insult people.
  12. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Im certain your generally talking nonsense yes. You list a load of stuff that could have been lifted from a bad kung fu film as if it is fact and then act as if this somehow makes you better than all the plebs out there who actually have a realistic view on the world.

    Psychic power is nonsense. If your talking about the ability to influence people by suggestion or things like that, thats not pyschic. Look up Derren Brown. If you redefine pyschic ability as any mental power then yes pyschic ability exists but this isn't what the word means.

    Thats a part of human society but generally they are not fighting over pyschic powers but power of the more common status variety. On top of this I don't quite agree with your simplification of human society it's also about massive amounts of people working together to help each other.

    Dear Lord... your right, all these pyschics are in hiding because the powerful people will get them. Mind you they do manage to keep a high enough profile to attract students, appear in talkshows and have you talking about them in internet forums or are those just the fake pyschics?

    If a pyschic could read minds wouldn't 'powerful people' want them to join their side rather than kill them? Ohhh... maybe there are even alliances between powerful people and pyschics!

    Your discussing them on an internet forum. There are websites dedicated to pyschic abilities. There are various quacks out their who even make a living from their powers... I don't know of any that have been lynched yet? What are the mobs doing?

    No they don't. People are allowed to carry guns in a lot of countries. Even then the people they are sending to deal with the guy with the gun are carrying guns... so does that mean the government has pyschic hit squads to deal with pyschics?!? Obviously it must be so.

    Your right with the slight exception that one is a real thing and the other imaginary. Kind of like what is the difference between the power of a gun and the power of a thousand leprechauns.

    I don't respect YOUR ARGUMENTS. You I have no problem with beyond the fact that you believe incredibly daft things and argue them in a very poor manner. Lets rework your scenario...

    If I come up to you and say "Hi friend! I want to tell you about these wonderful magic beans! They will make you healthy and strong!"

    I wonder just how many people would reply "WOW GREAT!" I hope it's not that many but I have a feeling it's alot more than I would hope.

    Sorry the cycle if your talking complete rubbish I'm going to say so and to be honest I don't really feel at much of a loss for not having your insight on chi you don't come across as good hearted in your posts either more arrogant and deluded. Please bear in mind I don't know you so maybe in real life your none of those things- this is simply the impression your posts portray to me.

    You also state silly beliefs that sound like something from a kids book on wizards as if they are fact and then take the huff when people disagree with you and don't want your 'pearls of wisdom'. I've so far managed to have a perfectly civil conversation with Taoquan because he is able to debate things logically and deal with criticism. I'm not annoyed with Taoquan and he isn't annoyed with me (as far as I know) despite having extremely different opinions. So maybe the issue isn't so much my skepticism as your inability to provide a coherent argument for anything you believe or deal with criticism?

    Believe me in real life I'm a bundle of joy I'm just negative about complete nonsense. Anyhow, feel free to mark me off your Christmas list for lectures on Chi I think I will survive without your wisdom.
  13. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Pot, kettle, anyone??? LMAO!!!! :D :rolleyes: :eek:
  14. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    To those who disbelieve what "the cycle" is ranting... I mean saying... its absolutely true cos I saw it for my own eyes... in the house of the flying daggers and hero... I mean if you can make candles flutter surely you are just one step away from shooting Qi bullets just like a gun shoots hot lead... and where can I get some of those great beans that makes me strong and healthy... :Angel:
  15. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    The below is from the silk reeling thread and posted by the cycle...
    so is physics Qi or is Qi physics... and if this is the case then isnt it also the case that it proves that the term Qi was a blanket term to include many things that werent understood then but are now...??
  16. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I'm not rude to everyone Visage, old chum, just to those that have persistently made personal attacks on me :D

    I think the difference in tone of people's comments on my "signing out for a while" thread compared to those on your old mate TJB's "now's your chance" show fairly clearly the impressions people have been getting of who has been trying to bully who around here.

    You have hurled loads of personal abuse at me, I just can't be bothered to spend my life arguing with another TJB clone. I've largely put your comments down to youthful folly.
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2007
  17. thecycle

    thecycle Banned Banned

    That is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own life. The problem is that you are wrong. You are labeling reality as rubbish. There are impressionable people that will listen to you because you are loud and confident.

    You are hurting the future of young or old people who actually believe you. They will miss out on their future education and future abilities they may gain if they listen to your negative and wrongheaded statements.

    What you mean is that you have had a conversation with him because he thinks like you. Or he talks to you in ways that your brain is prepared to accept.

    You and I are not alike CKava. You are more right brained while I am more left brained. You must have solid concrete answers to things. I never want solid concrete answers to things because there is no such thing as solid concrete in real life. Life changes constantly as you should know if you study kung fu.

    You are a limited person and you will remain limited until you change your brain. That is the way life works. It is not me "being arrogant" and telling you what I think. It is me telling you how the universe works because I happened to learn those facts and I am passing them on because I think you could benefit from them.

    Sure you will survive. As another one of the cattle in the world.

    Will people be upset because I spoke honestly? CKava just lectured me on his right to be honest.

    A person who does not understand what is possible in the world will always be a victim. A cow waiting to be milked.
  18. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    As per above no I am not annoyed with you as with your skepticism you do inspire me to do some fantastic and true research. I don't look at people who don't believe in Qi or supernatural powers as people that are out to "get me" or even inferior. I look at them as ways to learn as well, because I can come up with examples and learn from criticism this will make me (I hope :D ) a better overall practitioner. You cannot please everyone, nor can you change a person's mind, even hypnotists say you cannot hypnotize a person to do something that is against their values, for this is akin to going agianst their own spirit.
    I know what I know and I have seen what I do and believe in help people that had otherwise given up hope. Is it Qi, Spirit, psychic powers energy...the list can go on, the point is it does not matter to me. I help people, in our medicine and life we so often get people that are frustrated with western medicine and we in TCM are often people's last hope. Maybe it is the simple fact we give them that hope as we listen to them and still present true compassion towards our fellow man. none of it matters, I help and heal based on my own beliefs and that is good enough for me.
    People like you and JK and Shadowh and anyone else who does not believe make us better practitioners because of discussions we have had here.

    Woohoo got it :D
    One of my good Tai Chi friends here simply states E=mc2, that is his personal idea of Qi. If you think of force and all the different types:

    Applied Force
    Fapp An applied force is a force which is applied to an object by another object or by a person. If a person is pushing a desk across the room, then there is an applied force acting upon the desk. The applied force is the force exerted on the desk by the person.

    Gravity Force (also known as Weight)
    Fgrav The force of gravity is the force with which the earth, moon, or other massive body attracts an object towards itself. By definition, this is the weight of the object. All objects upon earth experience a force of gravity which is directed "downward" towards the center of the earth. The force of gravity on an object on earth is always equal to the weight of the object as given by the equation:

    Fgrav = m * g


    g = acceleration of gravity = 9.8 m/s2 (on Earth)
    m = mass (in kg)

    (Caution: do not confuse weight with mass.)

    Normal Force

    Fnorm The normal force is the support force exerted upon an object which is in contact with another stable object. For example, if a book is resting upon a surface, then the surface is exerting an upward force upon the book in order to support the weight of the book. On occasion, a normal force is exerted horizontally between two objects which are in contact with each other.

    Friction Force
    Ffrict The friction force is the force exerted by a surface as an object moves across it or makes an effort to move across it. The friction force opposes the motion of the object. For example, if a book moves across the surface of a desk, the desk exerts a friction force in the direction opposite to the motion of the book.

    Friction results when two surfaces are pressed together closely, causing attractive intermolecular forces between the molecules of the two different surfaces. As such, friction depends upon the nature of the two surfaces and upon the degree to which they are pressed together. The friction force can be calculated using the equation:

    Air Resistance Force
    Fair Air resistance is a special type of frictional force which acts upon objects as they travel through the air. Like all frictional forces, the force of air resistance always opposes the motion of the object. This force will frequently be ignored due to its negligible magnitude. It is most noticeable for objects which travel at high speeds (e.g., a skydiver or a downhill skier) or for objects with large surface areas.

    Tensional Force
    Ftens Tension is the force which is transmitted through a string, rope, or wire when it is pulled tight by forces acting at each end. The tensional force is directed along the wire and pulls equally on the objects on either end of the wire.

    Spring Force
    Fspring The spring force is the force exerted by a compressed or stretched spring upon any object which is attached to it. This force acts to restores the object, which compresses or stretches a spring, to its rest or equilibrium position. For most springs (specifically, for those said to obey "Hooke's Law"), the magnitude of the force is directly proportional to the amount of stretch or compression.
    From (http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/newtlaws/U2L2b.html)

    We use all these basic physic forces within Tai Chi, including E=mc2 (imo) because we are using mass, and light (Qi) to create energy. I feel that C equalling light is another FORM/TYPE of Qi, remember I am not a fan of the umbrella term of Qi as there are other types. again just my opinon.

    While we are on opinons (sorry to be off topic) but I look was truly hoping these forums would be a chance for us to all learn from each other. More than anything I see many MA egos going on (now awoken to my very own as well). Even in the Tai Chi forums we are ignoring one of the cardinal rules of Tai Chi Chuan "Don't use force." Grandmaster Jou Tsung Hwa thought that all Tai Chi principles should be practiced even in ones daily life and actions to truly cultivate one's self.
    We should respect other's views and opinions from both sides of the fence and realize we can learn from each other and become better practitioners for it. There are no superior ways to train, think, feel, or even be. The Taoist saying: "If one sharpens a sword too much it becomes dull" comes to mind here. I have been enjoying the forums up until I found I can get blasted by many people because I believe in some of the esoteric thoughts. This is not wrong, nor does it make me an inferior/superior MA (imo).
    Bottom line, everyone that has posted has immense knowledge and everyday I log on here I learn something about someone else's art and my own. This cannot be achieved by being closed off to possibilites of Qi, Silk Reeling, Kung Fu, BJJ etc, etc...The only way to truly become a Master MA is to have knowledge of many MA. I hope this is something we have not all fundamentally forgotten. Sorry for being off topic, but I hate to see this thread (which has great info from both sides imo) die off b/c we cannot learn from each other.
  19. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Cool, and I've put your comments down to you being a raving loon :)

  20. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Well if qi is just physics, why do so many people insist it is something else and try to do wierd things with it that physics doesn't have? What is a shou gong all about - drawing energy into the dantian and all that, how do you explain that with physics?!!!

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