Push hands in Krav Maga

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Antonius, Sep 2, 2015.

  1. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    That isn't really it in this case, i saw a drill i thought was pointless and made a comment, had it been originated in boxing or judo or muay thai, i would have made the same conclusion.

    And what i was trying to say, that if you wanted to develop functional tactile sensitivity relative to low light or losing your sight, almost any other martial form of contact sparring would be more practical to train blindfolded.

    Don't act like i am trying to carry on a vendetta here, i thought the use he found was bogus, it just happened to be tcc, which i have said elsewhere, i find bogus, it doesn't mean that is it bogus just because it's tai chi.

    See, me being rational and all that jazz, didn't expect that did you, what, what!
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
  2. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    It happened to be Krav Maga where that drill was used if I have understood correctly. He said his exposure to push hands in a tcc class was helpful in the context of that other drill and he said he saw push hands had some benefits/ usefulness for him due to that experience in Krav Maga that he hadn't appreciated in the same way before. This is the context of the OP/ discussion as far I as I can tell.

    To be honest, you've been railing against this idea or feeling he wanted to share from the very start and have said any number of things to justify it. Most of them rubbish, to be fair.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
  3. Antonius

    Antonius Valued Member

    You understood correctly.

    Taiji helpt me in a krav maga drill. It surprised me and made me appreciate the art more. That is all.
  4. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Oh, i full well know, but i was questioned about Taiji, no one had started me on how terrible krav can be, i'm saying i know he found a use for tcc in a krav drill, but i am unable to see it as useful, either the drill, or the skill, walking on hands, yet again.

    Well, i'm sorry you feel that way, but i will reiterate, tell me how the exercise isn't pointless beyond navigating a mass of people, which is pretty much the domain of some security professionals with any degree of frequency in a martial setting, and why the hell would it need to be drilled to the point of having to develop the ability blindfolded, tell me how or why someone who is either an Israeli commando, or a regular person, would need to know that, even if they are training to defend themselves?

    The drill is stupid, i blame krav, the skill cross over may be intriguing, but the drill remains stupid, but at least you get to go "see, see, tcc can be useful" for a spell, so you got that going for you.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
  5. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Yea, because fights never break out in crowded bars and clubs.
    Because the attributes and skills trained in push hands would never be useful in that scenario. Because you know those things such as rooting, tactile sensitivity, diverting and deflecting force away from you, unbalancing, uprooting, structure, connection, issuing force etc. could never be useful in that kind of situation.

    I know TCC and push hands can be useful as martial arts, and I spar too before you throw that crap around. There's some useful stand up grappling stuff in TCC don't be fooled otherwise. Push hands training of both types lends itself to that as well as some aspects of striking (issuing force).

    Not anyone else's fault you don't really get any of that or simply have had poor experiences.
    If you have problems with drills that try to capture crowd scenarios again your issue. I don't see it as that big of a deal, I did a bit of Systema some time ago where mass crowd/ brawl drills were practiced...

    As was mentioned lots of people may have to work in scenarios like that and their job is not there to be an MMA FIGHTER RaAAHHHH (tm). Not to mention a fight might break out in a crowded bar or club or errr simply a crowd (ever been to the football or a demo of some sort - I guess not!); so what's so wrong if such a drill is used to practice getting yourself away from the fighting and to safety in a system that is about self defence/ protection (Krav).

    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
  6. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    That's right this thread/ OP is what I have been waiting for all this time to validate 13 years of practice. God forbid others have a mind of their own and can make choices and assessments for themselves eh.

    Forget the full contact competition in Sanda I did at the British Open. Forget all the cross training and sparring with people from arts like MT and BJJ and Judo and other styles of KF. Forget the countless clips I have seen of TCC guys doing Sanda and forms of stand up grappling. Forget all the teachers and students I have met from TCC/IMA... Forget all the hours of training.. Forget the medals at "push hands" competition.. Forget anything I have encountered in the real world...

    I was waiting for a photo of a crowd drill from Krav!!, and a nice word from a guy I don't know from Adam...... validation at last!!

    LOL at the worst trolling ever. (Edited. Bit of post removed.)
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2015
  7. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Mod note- Let's remember to not get personal in these discussion ok? Keep your opinions to the topic and not about the person stating an opinion. Thanks!
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Well, he does live in a country with 1/15th the population density of the UK, so maybe training for crowds is pointless for him.

    Maybe he should be doing push hands crowd drills with sheep?
  9. Antonius

    Antonius Valued Member

    I found the drill useful. The people at the seminar found it useful. You disagree. I have no problem with this.

    @David Harrison: I live in the most densely populated country in Europe. Dutch carnaval alone proves the usefulness of this drill. Im going to need it when I snake my way through a horde of drunken people dressed like clowns while I desperately try to reach the beer stand for a refill :)
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
  10. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    That is not representative of a crowd, that is representative of Hillsborough.

    And i can't comment on it's usefulness cause i have never found an instructor who didn't want me to believe there was hidden psychic energy in my body i had to utilize, which is garbage.

    Don't get me started on systema either, poor man's combat sambo to most concerned.

    This isn't about people training to be an mma fighter, this is about people doing drills that seem totally alien to the human experience, and then insisting they know something about fighting by getting good at something stupid and impractical.
  11. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Hey, it's been a slow decade for you, i mean, it is taiji.

    Dude, had i come on here trying to tell people that i had a drill where six blokes tied blindfolds on while tying an arm behind their back and had them jab their way around each other, you'd look at me like i was mental, why should i look any differently on someone doing something equally as mental, it doesn't matter if they are new or have been here for a decade, propagating nonsense as a useful skill is something i call people on.
  12. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Nah mate, it's cause i'm Polynesian, all the white folks move out the way when i turn up, i'm like the social version of moses.
  13. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    How was the drill useful? when have you ever been surrounded by that many people at that range and had to get out in a combat situation, all the while without them hitting you?

    Blindfolded, as well.
  14. Antonius

    Antonius Valued Member

    I have the feeling you dont go out much. Have you never been to a club or a festival where a fight broke out? I have. You dont box your way towards the exit. You head for the exit as fast as possible without making the fight bigger. Drills like this are for those situations.

    You have some obvious animosity towards krav maga but dont let that limit you.
  15. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    How many times does that happen to the average person though, i've been in plenty of bars, clubs and mosh pits and maybe seen it happen 5 times, which would be pretty high if i was to ask around i'd gather, people who have worked in security excluded, and almost every time the crowd was able to dissipate fairly quickly without needing to train some drill that seems to focus on finding a way out of a mass of people regardless of finding a way out, i'd assume because the mass of people are all flowing to the exits away from the trouble to create space, to compound the lack of relative applicability you're doing it blindfolded of all things.
  16. Antonius

    Antonius Valued Member

    How many times does the average person have to escape an armbar? Or do a knife disarm? By your logic most martial arts should not exist.

    As for large fights; I've never seen the majority head for the exit. They look, cheer, possibly participate or nowadays try to make the worldstar frontpage by making a vid with their phones.
  17. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    You are right, the only reason the armbar is more valid than this, or god forbid, most knife defense theory, is because it can be pressure tested against a resisting opponent in a number of sports, and given that it can be pressure tested, some people are able to determine that armbaring someone can be a useful tool of defence based on their previous success with it outside of actual physical confrontations, even then, i don't think anyone would seriously recommend it if the object was escape.

    If the fight is so large it draws people to it, how would your escape be hindered to the point of needing this drill unless you were pretty much right next to it at the very beginning?
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You sound like you've never been in the same place as more than 50 people. People do not "flow" away from trouble toward the nearest exit in a logical manner. Experiments have shown that we tend to all rush for the same exit, whether it's the closest one or not.

    "When we panic, ancient instincts kick in. In a room with six exits, it seems like the most logical course of action would be for the crowd to divide evenly among all six. Instead, we stampede to just one. We disregard logic and get injured."
    - http://nautil.us/issue/13/symmetry/want-to-get-out-alive-follow-the-ants

    It's not all about combat, either. Surely if it were, they would be hitting each other? Anyone who's been on the London tube enough times will have been caught in a crush at some point. Awareness and sensitivity are good things to have when you're packed like sardines with angry commuters and pick-pockets!
  19. Antonius

    Antonius Valued Member

    Because I am already in a crowded area when the fight starts.

    From my experience this drill is useful and taiji helped me perform better in it. You are not going to change my mind on this.

    Knife defense can be tested under pressure against resisting opponents (shock knives are great for this) but its still very low percentage. A friend of mine who is now on this forum (Kebro) once refused a knife drill because "that stuff would get me killed".
  20. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    It really does become a question of proximity to exits coupled with how many points people enter from, if you are in at a festival where all exit points serve as points of entry and it kicks off because some guy with the wrong cuts turns up in front of a bunch of people with the right cuts, you find space opens right up because people will tend to move toward where they came in, although it was really more a case of people moving away as opposed to outright fleeing.

    However, if you are in a pub with two viable entries, then most people flee to those ignoring other exits, going out the ones they came in, still it depends which is the closest and where the trouble is that usually determines how people move, i suppose you could probably put that down to the design of the place as well at some level, even still, the point is, I've never seen a mad dash to an exit in the opposite direction of trouble and thought, "damn, this is going too slow, if only i trained to get through this crowd quicker", you're gonna be outside pretty quickly due to the mass of people, not in spite of it.

    I can concede it could work for some train stations I've seen, but at that point, is it really a martial skill? And should someone be charging someone money to learn the drill under the guise of martial arts instruction if it's primary use would be to navigate Shinjuku at peak hour?

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