Push hands in Krav Maga

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Antonius, Sep 2, 2015.

  1. Antonius

    Antonius Valued Member

    My Dojang is closed during summer holidays and I was looking for something to keep me busy (outside of training at home of course). Turns out a wudang kung fu/taiji school recently openend in my town. I went there for the kung fu to maintain flexibility (and to my surprise a killer workout as well) and some taiji just for the heck of it. After all taiji was for old people...

    The kung fu was nice but I really enjoyed doing push-hands in the taiji classes. For an art I considered soft it could get pretty intense. It felt 'useful' if you know what I mean.

    Two months later my old krav maga school held a seminar in which they had an interesting drill. Everybody had to walk really close to each other with their eyes closed while maintaining body contact. We had to move through the sweaty mass of people as efficiently as possible. It reminded me of moving through a large group of people at a festival. This was the point of the drill; how to maneuver through a mob to safety.

    While others plowed through using strength and mass I slithered through. It felt just like taiji push-hands. But with 15 people all at once. A bizar experience.

    I'm the guy in the middle smiling like an idiot

    It shows that something you thought was too soft and useless can actually be quite useful and that every art has something you can apply in a different situation.

    Unfortunately the kung fu school has canceled all classes due to unforseen events. So my Summer of Kung Fu ends. But if it opens again I'll gladly go back for some more taiji.
  2. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    obviously never seen Chen Zhonghua
  3. Antonius

    Antonius Valued Member

    Never even heard of it. Looked it up and it seems interesting. Do you have any experience with it?
  4. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Chen Zhonghua is a him not an it :D

    I know a few guys that trained with him, I trained with Chen family, Which he is not a part of, but I am mostly Yang style from Tung Ying Chieh and we have fast forms and fajin sets and multiple push hands practices and drills...and qinna too.

    Your experience with push hands and krav maga is interesting
  5. Antonius

    Antonius Valued Member

    Ah ok. My bad :D
  6. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    I've never done quite as much push hands as I would have liked, and was never that great at it. There is nothing wrong with sensitivity training as long as its kept in a proper context. It is good for discearning 'gifts' that is to say when an opportunity for a split second presents itself to peform a joint lock, because you feel that the opponent is slighly off balance or his structure is compromised. However it only tends to be usefull against opponets who for whatever reason have decided to remain attached and at close quarters. Fishing for a lock or a taijiquan tyle uprooting could have bad consequences if you want to use it agaisnt someone who has better footwork than you and has no interest in standing toe to toe. That being said Ive seen my own instructor ward off one of my overcommited jabs quite effortlessly and apply a wrist lock, so it does have some legs as a training methodology. But a proper push hands competitor might have a better insight. As for feeling your way through a crowd? Push hands might home in handy for sensitivity and an internal sense of balance, but I suspect a panicking crowd might be too volotile for any sensitivity work, where quick wits might be a better trait to cultivate.Fighting in a crowded low light scenario or when your own eyesight is compromised? Now THAT is a more interesting question. Push hands might be good in that situation.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
  7. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Push hands is a tool for training that is all, it is not for fighting, what you learn from it can be applied to fighting. But push hands, all by itself is not for fighting

    And IMO competition push hands misses the mark completely as to what push hands is for
  8. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    While i can see the logic, it is still probably not the greatest tool to use in a fight with low visibility, granted, avoiding that situation entirely is probably your best bet, but i do wonder how likely the scenario actually is?
  9. Antonius

    Antonius Valued Member

    All I was saying is that I found a use for something I thought was almost useless. Taiji surprised me :)
  10. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Yeah, but if you get really good at walking on your hands, does that make it a practical skill? Short of finding a way out of a mosh pit, i don't see it being that useful.
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Tear gas? Pepper spray? Whiskey in the eyes-oh (that's for the Irish folk/Thin Lizzy fans ;) )?

    What would you say is the greatest tool to use?

    If you work as security in a nightclub or festivals, it's probably going to be useful.
  12. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    It's not just sensitivity-it's also for practicing issuing.

    You don't "fish" for a lock or balance attack-there's either an opportunity or there isn't. Most people when freesparring don't just stand toe to toe and one can certainly pull of balance attacks in that context. Generally locks are better when you've already disrupted the opponent,either through a disruptive balance attack or something like a smack in the face or kick to a leg. Catching someone's jab is pretty difficult,unless they hang it or are tooooo slow.It happens,but not something one expects or consciously tries for if the jabber is at all competent.

    One doesn't "stay attached" if one has brains.You join,you do something.If not get out!The longer you stay in harm's way-----the more YOU may be harmed!

    As to the OP's "crowd work"-well yeah, a panicking crowd is trouble for anyone,however I must say that that some of the ph skills work quite well for "regular" crowded areas,such as concerts,festivals,packed streets,crazy bars.

    Of course,you still need footwork.That's a given.
  13. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Agh. A Yank has to go and fix that fer ya.
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That's why I put "Irish folk" first! The Dubliners didn't write it, it's a traditional song.

    A friend of mine once saw a Dubliners CD at my house and I was surprised when he showed great interest in it. Turns out he thought it was pronounced dub-liners, and thought it was some kind of heavy dub record :)
  15. Guitar Nado

    Guitar Nado Valued Member

    Metallica cover is the best!
  16. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    So, you are telling me that the average person is at some point going to get tear gassed or pepper sprayed while in a crowd and need to find their way out only using their hands? That sounds like a once in a lifetime situation for people who don't live in Syria at the minute, that and from what i understand about pepper spray, you're probably going to be in too much pain to remember taji.

    You are right though, it could be potentially useful to security personnel, granted, if there is enough of an emergency that it requires them to make their way through the crowd for some reason as opposed to around it, you'd think the crowd would disperse somewhat due to the emergency, it's not a perfect theory granted, but i still think the number of times someone is going to need to rush through a compact crowd of people, even in the security industry, is probably low, relatively speaking.
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I was being a bit facetious with my examples, but there's lots of reasons why vision may be impaired, blood and/or streaming eyes from an injury, for example. The push hands I've seen is a bit limited in scope to be a comprehensive training tool for this, but sensitivity and proprioception are generally good things in any physical activity.

    The crowd don't have to be panicked, just drunk/high/stupid. Also, it's kind of hard for crowds to disperse in a confined area. Anyone I've known who's done security in clubs has had to rush through compact crowds with fair regularity.
  18. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Every time that some heretic says that Metallica's version is better than Thin Lizzy's version, I'm going to kill a puppy. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

    It's the only way to put a stop to this madness.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2015
  19. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    But wouldn't you better develop such sensitivity in almost any martial art that tested under pressure?

    NZ must be one of the chillest places ever to do security, cause i can't really say i know too many people in the security industry who'd have to wade into a mass of people on a regular enough basis to actually devote training to the concept.
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I can't see anything wrong with isolation training for those attributes, in fact I think it may be advantageous.

    Wading through dozens/hundreds/thousands of belligerent and intoxicated punters to get to trouble makers seems to be a common occurrence over here.

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