Hello. Sorry to come asking for info again. I was just combing though some tai chi videos online and came across this one by earle motaigue. http://youtube.com/watch?v=cXpiCCGytag Don't worry, i'm not going ot ask about his authenticity etc i remember that being a big arguin point on MAP years ago. My question is more about general tai chi punching technique.If you go to about 2.32 of the clip where he's talking about the thumb is this normal? If oyu can't be bothered wathcing the clip he talks about putting the thumb on top of the fist rather than underneath. I've done the same punch for years (obvisouly with a more ground-foot-hip-arm-fist style rather than fa jing.) but with a "normal fist" So is this normal? Something some styles do? Just Earle montaigue? all styles? or none of the above? Just seems very unnatural to me. Maybe that's because of my previous training. Thanks, Jamie P.s. And don't worry.I' would never try to learn any martial art from a video unless it was something i had already learned. This is just a question.
Some systems do that thumb placement,or present it as an option.Never cared for it personally(it was an option in a southern CMA I learned),but it's not something he dreamed up.
I have learned a different version yet. The thumb meets the middle joint of the forefinger exactly, the thumb joint shows up. Never towards oneself. That changes the motion of punching, too compared with the video.
From the short peice I watched it looks a lot like the way they punch in wing chun, apart from having the thumb on top.
I will say it is not a huge deal but all things that create tension is intentionally kept to a minimum in the early part of the Taiji training. This is done so you learn to focus mentally along the arm and hand without using brute strength. The first levels of learning in taiji is when you: 1. Lightness practice in the arms it is actually what you are doing in allot of the post training of Taiji. Most systems of Taiji do the same type. Holding arms out to the side hands at about head hight elbows down, or hand at chest level in arch finger pointing at each other, and holding the hand in front of your belly button finger pointing up and thumbs towards the belly button. This is done to build the tendons of the arms so that in time you will learn to do lightness, than heavyness, and maintaining the circle type thing for push hands, last you learn how to read and when to use each at the right time. That is what is more important. If the thumb thing feels like tension than change it. It has to do with how to not have tension is all. 2. Heaviness is when you can seem to push without pushing something.there are two types of this. One is intent, it is about creating the feeling of forward(push) without actually pushing, it is a steady forward intent. This is called heavy, you can seem to lower someones arm with little effort or power or strength. 3. Structural alignment is when you are completely relaxed, and you are not moved via someone else's forward intent. This is maintaining structure, equalizing the circle is what it is. This is to maintain the circle at all times. Also the real reason Taiji is called the internal martial arts. All internals focus on this set of methods. While I don't do what Earl is talking about it is not a bad idea, nor is it standard either. It is just his way of relaxing the arm so that he has no tension when he hits someone. Good luck Sub Zero.
lol... it's Charles Bukowski doing Tai Chi. On a more serious note... I won't go into the whole thing of 'why on earth would you hit someone with the smallest and weakest of knuckles?' issue... that's been done a fair bit on MAP already to no real resolution... but I had to laugh at the very early part of the video he talks about a 'shockwave' being transmitted by the pinky up into the brain causing DEATH or knockout. Knockout yes... death... lol... come on. Why the huge need to oversell the technique? Nice mythbuilding... poor understanding of physiology and anatomy. That right there should send up a huge red flag. What's more is I bet he isn't able to actually substantiate the whole thing he's on about whereby the energy in a punch is negated because of the placement of the thumb like in a traditional boxers fist. Riiiiight. So all those guys that have been KO'd by a traditional fist didn't really get KO'd... they somehow missed out on some of that energy that got transferred to their skull/jaw because of the placement of the thumb in a natural fist. Listen to the bit about 3:00 into the vid where he disparages 99% of all other martial arts. Sad that. He then goes on to talk further rubbish... talking about the 'natural' motion of the hand/body. Making a fist and trying to convince us that thumb somehow naturally stacks on the top of the fist instead of how it stacks when you make a regular fist or grip a chin up bar or pull up on a tree branch or rope. Sorry but this is just stuff he's making up as he goes. With even a quick look into human anatomy it's not hard to see the primary task for humans hands has been grasping objects... even in our nearest primate cousins the same grip is evident. So if we take that and begin to experiment why our thumb naturally locks down over the second knuckle it's because it provides the most secure grip. As humans we spend far more time gripping objects than we do punching... even for people who punch an extraordinary amount such as boxers. So when he pops off that the natural position for a thumb is to stack on the side of the knuckles... he's talking rubbish. Hands were developed to grasp not to punch... so it's natural for them to have the thumb lock down into the most secure position to remain holding an item. That he's suggesting we should somehow change that to achieve a better punching fist is a bit absurd. He sounds far too full of himself. Surely there must be full threads about this guy... I'm guessing he's been highlighted at Bullshido no doubt. (edit: yes after a bit of a search it appears this guy is questioned by many not only for his techniques but his credentials and where he actually learned the stuff from.. much of that coming directly from the Taiji community itself.) Oops... just read the OP again... yeah I can see why this guys fluff would be a big point of contension on a martial arts forum. For those of you that enjoyed the original vid... you'll love this one... Dim Mak badness for everyone!! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1U0UkC6kdg"]MTG23: Dim-Mak Advanced. Erle Montaigue - YouTube[/ame]
He is very full of himself! He does not just sound that way, he is. He is one of those only he knows the right answer, and has a chip on his shoulder about it. No one knows how to fight but him, mainly because he has never seen anyone say what he says. It always gets me to slip, every time I hear someone say things like that to. I could not watch the whole video. Again I agree it is not standard, it is his thing. So, it does get worse the video I mean.
He's a bit out on his point location as well. GB 3 is actually about an inch in front of the ear, just above the bone (zygomatic arch). The point at the temples is Tai Yang. However, in the interest of balance, I did come across this 2003 article on Dim Mac in Combat mag by his pupil Paul Brecher, which I found quite reasonable. He at least knows what he's talking about when it come to acupoints, whether you chose to believe the martial theory or not. If you start foaming at the mouth at the mention of the Q word, don't go there - step away from the keyboard! http://www.taiji.net/old_yang.html
Hi Sub Zero, I'm not sure about other styles of Taiji, but it is perfectly natural. when your hand is relaxed the thumb naturally hits on top of the hand, if yours doesn't check out a baby's. (if you've got one handy) The reason it does not sit on the outside of the hand is because it causes tension in the arm. hope this helps
Actually the point he's trying to make is that placing the thumb on the outside of the fist aka Karate style creates tension in the arm thus slowing down the speed of the strike. He is not talking about gripping things, if you strike from an open hand position, naturally your thumb will land on the top as you make a fist. Saying that if you've always made a karate type fist it will obviously feel more natural to you. You are perfectly correct our hands are made for gripping not punching so why not change it? If you want any of this proven come and visit one of his instructors nothing is kept secret no inner circle bul****. Its obvious that you haven't got a clue what he's talking about, so maybe you should find out for yourself, rather than just slagging him off based on what other people have said. A bit like a little boy in the play ground! Great just backs up what I said earlier come and find out for yourself. regards
Hi,lieqi fan Yep Erle is often a bit off with the points due to the fact like myself he doesn't really care what its called. Its a funny thing when you start you have this thing about being able to name the points you are striking, after a couple of years you don't really care anymore as accessing them is far more important. Paul should know them all off by heart as he's head of the Chinese medical council in the UK. cheers and good luck with your training
Actually, I've always known it as a taiji fist ... Also when we take the bulk and restrictions of a boxing glove into context, a boxers fist (inside the glove) doesn't form a tight 'conventional' fist, the same as one would have un-gloved. In fact (IMO) the shape of the fist within a glove is quite similar to the taiji fist. When I boxed (in the army ... eons ago) we were taught to keep our hands relaxed, not gripping tight at all ... again similar to a taiji fist. While I do think that Erle tends to be a bit dramatic in his presentation ... there is nothing physiologically wrong about the fist per-se (I'm not affiliated in any way BTW ... nor do I practice his version of taiji). It's actually the last three knuckles that are used ... compared to the first two ... mind you, both sets are used when required/appropriate. It's the combination of knuckles (and strike mechanics) that provides structural integrity ... not the individual big knuckles on their own!
Thanks again for all the grat info guys. One thing tho Kembang. Were you ever told "if in a real ifght you punch this (similar to the taiji) way." or was it only mentioned when you were training with gloves. I totally agree with you about the boxing glove idea and think it's a great way of looking at it. Just it makes sense with a glove on because that's the way your ahnd is forced to go in the glove and it has protection. Wihtout this protection do you think your boxing instructor would have told you to punhc this way? I've been trying this punhc out on the pads and altho it odes seem to strike ok it just doesn't feel 100% secure. I have been doing it in a standerd "from the hip" sort of style tho but i don't see how that could impact on the "sercureness" of the punch just the wya the powers delivered. Thanks, Jamie
Hi Sub Zero, my punching/striking style has evolved a lot since those (boxing) days and I'm very comfortable with the fist. I actually never use the "conventional" fist because I find it too restrictive ... taiji fist is my personal preference and it's very versatile in short range and transitions easily (for me) from open hand. Cheers.
