Punching correctly in the Takamatsuden

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    That's what randori is for.

    Might have to agree to disagree as we're moving off topic here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
  2. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Punch with the rear hand from Doko no kamae makes more sense than thinking of a punch from ichimonji. Oh and ps, this is what the OP was asking:


    Naturally, there are many other strikes in our arts, including chops, elbows, and odd angled things that strike with different surfaces and are a bit more rare. So from your understanding, how does one punch properly in the Takamatsuden?

     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I posted video of boxing jabs to explain the pulling and pushing forces. Given that, how much is your oi tsuki like the hand is being pulled towards the target and how much is it being pushed towards the target?

    I wanted to know how much of a proper oi tsuki involved these different concepts.

    Don't be confused that by pulling I mean being pulled by your body... by pulling in this context I mean that the hand is "effortlessly" moving towards the target. The hammer principle illustrates the pulling force concept:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzhRrG98XsI"]Hammer Principle Drill - YouTube[/ame]

    The video is better from the 1:00 mark on for showing the movements quickly.

    The pushing force comes at the end (last part of the technique near impact).
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Koyo would have like what you say. First principle: "do not get hit"
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Fakes aren't reliable in low light conditions. Actual contact or evasion would be more practical.

    Anyway, in the following video, really great example of pulling foce at 3:24-3:25 when Hatsumi's hand comes up under the chin of uke.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKLcJ-emDa0"]Soke Masaaki Hatsumi and Hard Training - YouTube[/ame]

    Also really good demo at 2:02-2:05 of some of the stuff I think PR is talking about, even though it isn't an oi tsuki, the foot movement could lead to one. I like the hand movement as the hand is moving as if being pulled towards the target.
     
  6. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I'm also not understanding this flat footed punching. What if someone kicks you in the leg? You can't cover if you're flat footed.
     
  7. baby cart

    baby cart Valued Member

    Yeah yeah, everybody can punch "well" until they get punched in the face. When was the last time your shihan got smacked by a good shot? Only under fire can somebody in the violence professions demonstrate their competency.

    And it really doesn't matter whose deshi Netzler is. BY your comments in the thread I linked, you basically pooh-poohed away the time and effort he, hatsumi and various other shihan invested in his training. So basically the bujinkan chew them up and spit them out, especially is one ain't a "deshi."

    The question is: whose deshi is the "real deshi?" Another "no real bujinkan" fallacy.

    If it weren't for youtube's TOS I'll be posting a Japanese shihan's training (that also includes sparring). It sucks big time. And yes, its ALL JAPANESE.

    It's high possible (almost 99%) that you're inflicted with the Dunning-Kruger Effect.


    The answer:

    Stupid Irony much?

    Ladies and gentlemen: find a picture of doko no kamae. See if you can find one that has the rear hand far from ear level or above. Remember kids: EAR LEVEL is EYE LEVEL. How CLOSE is the rear hand to the target compared to ichimonji (gyokko, koto or togakure, take your pick)?

    Now we got a weapon near the rear shoulder at eye level doing a sneak attack! Take your bets, folks, on whether the sneak attack succeeds or fails. :rolleyes:

    (Now he'll probably respond with feint with the lead hand using a stabbing motion. Now, imagine yourself being transported back in time. You were assaulted by a hooligan from ages past. Does he attack with a lead feinting movement that effectively tells you "I'm going to attack." Probably only if this was a martial arts tournament. An experience hooligan will probably get in too close for you to evade in time and bash your head in without warning so you'll look like a ninja turtle. Single punch KO. IF Oitsuki was a sneak attack, why the hell is the modern training conducted with Tori AWARE of uke, his location, his orientation, in fact most if not all of tori's senses are focused on uke. Sneak attack? LOL! :rolleyes:)

    Either the training sucks or the premise of "sneak attack" is wrong. IF one really trains for sneak attack (as oitsuki is primary staple that uke uses in ninjutsu traininh, you should let tori walk around people without knowing who the uke is. That's a sneak attack. If the premise is wrong, and it's meant to be used in a pitched battle, i.e. both sides are aware of the conflict, as opposed to the ambush/sneak attack, then why aren't you effective in the safest (compared to bouncing, law enforcement, etc.), and least restrictive (in terms of rules) of proving grounds: MMA? Hell, scratch that, let's lessen the amount of groundwork: sanda/sanshou?

    Either you don't have the skills or you don't have the balls. IF you don't have the skills, it's hypocritical of you to present yourself as an authority on these matters. IF you don't have the balls, well, I can't help you very much with that.
     
  8. baby cart

    baby cart Valued Member

    If you're the uke/aggressor and you're launching a sneak attack, then YES, landing the thump is way more important. Ever heard of the quote about cowards hitting with maximum force and surprise due to their fear that if you survive, you'll retaliate? It's also the basic principle in sniping and drone warfare.

    However, if it's not a sneak attack, then you're correct, as tori might have a trap waiting for you. Same with an opponent in an MMA match: both are AWARE of you and your intention to hurt him.
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Great point. I wish there was better movement towards common grounds in this thread so we can move on to great questions like this.

    Landing flat footed is very dependent on timing because you have a much smaller window for power generation. This means you have to be more skilled to benefit on the greater power. You also learn to take smaller steps with both feet moving.

    If timing is an issue, you are better off using heel-to-toe. To take advantage of shifting movements.

    Sweeps are also very timing based, so you see it can become a battle of timing between skilled opponents.
     
  10. baby cart

    baby cart Valued Member

    If sneak attacked/sucker punched no can legkik! :evil:
     
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'm trying to study up on this stuff. I'm not sure I buy or understand PR's point that it is a sucker punch. I'm not sure if you say it is a sucker punch or not, baby cart.

    A couple of reasons about using oi tsuki as a sneak attack. One is that the posture is along one line. This is good alignment for power, but it leaves half your body out of position for attacking. I think it makes more sense to be along one line if you are trying to be a smaller target. For instance, to avoid getting a limb chopped off or anything that could be sticking out. If this was truly a surprise attack, why the need to become a smaller target? (Edit: by the way, I do like the point about "filling up space" as part of the reasoning.)

    Instead, why not use something like Sakugeti (wrenching attack), which to me is a sucker punch to the throat followed by a kick. Or if closer, just kimon (demon gate), which is basically the REAL version of the lapel grab under the armpits followed by a head butt.

    Doko no kamae is interesting as I looked it up and see that the hand can be even higher to draw the opponent's eyes to it. I can see a surprise kick combined with the punch, but without the kick, I don't think there is a reason to step forward. IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    It's not that difficult to understand if one can picture what is being described. Perhaps this is the drawback of the written word.

    Flat footed stepping is more stable(important for slippery terrain for example). You land it flat in many kinds of attacks, because there is an immediate transfer of weight, you are more stable, and it is quicker than heel to toe(in the case of jumping attacks, you can't move heel to toe). If someone is kicking or trying to sweep your leg as you are stepping and you are heel to toe(depending on the kind of kick), you are in worse position to block or absorb the kick than you would be if your foot lands flat. Also, your knee position is more important in either case, when we attack, we are in a lower stance so your front knee is what protects you from any kicks or sweep attacks. In the case of oitsuki, getting kicked at is a non-issue because you are attacking his base and lead arm at the same time, making it difficult to kick with his lead leg, and you are moving to outside his lead leg with your rear foot so you are far away from an possible rear leg kick and moving off the direction it would potentially come from anyway.

    Oitsuki is a sneak attack in that he can't see it coming or react well timing wise. The lead hand is like a jab into his guard(instead of his face although you can attack straight at his eyes if his guard is down in which case it's more like a one two and although sneaky, not a sneak attack) but the idea is to take his lead hand out of the equation without letting him know it. Without sensitivity and subtlety(which comes only after a lot of experience), it is hard to affect his balance and guard without being too obvious(and causing him to react or counter-of course this is one strategy but not the ultimate level of the technique). The lead hand/leg movement sets the trap in motion and the followup high/low simultaneous attack finishes it off. If you've never been taught this, then you don't know what oitsuki is.

    Doko no kamae is not very different from other kamae due to your elbow position(which should be forward of your head, not behind it). It comes from weapons fighting, so should be understood as any high guard position with a long spear or halberd style weapon, or high sword guard. This kind of stance is found in weapons styles around the world and is useful because the weapon is cocked to strike and you can do many kinds of movements from there without telegraphing the blow. Nobody is suggesting that you should punch from there, just illuminating where fusien's reply to gapjumper's point about how the rear hand from daijodan moved was flawed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I said he wasn't that good, especially considering his reported rank. Do you disagree? Didn't say he didn't have "balls" as you like to call it, just that I didn't see any ability to use ninjutsu in the fights of his I watched, and that his record was nothing to right home about. So I'm not sure what the point of bringing him up is.:dunno: He didn't show a shihan level of understanding or ability to apply these arts in his fights, he had a 50/50 record, and he doesn't compete anymore so not sure how he is relevant here. You are more than welcome to try to hit my sensei in the face anytime. Your pain is your responsibility. You make some assumptions and assertions based on your own limited understanding, but they are groundless and spurious.



    You obviously don't understand a high guard with regards to weapons. A downward strike isn't automatically telegraphed just because your hands are up. Distance is also determined by elbow position, not just where your hands are. I doubt you could react fast enough to avoid most high school level kendo players attacks from jodan even if you knew they were going to strike if you were standing in front of them. However, just such a practice is a basic of Gyokko ryu taihenjutsu. If you don't practice being attacked suddenly in your own training, don't assume that others do not.



    I personally have done security and competed before, have you? Pretty silly to argue without knowing anything about the other person, but your assumptions and illusions can easily be addressed. Next time you see a shihan, try to attack them for real. That is the only way to answer some of your more sarcastic questions with any satisfaction.


    If you're referring to Nakadai sensei's "sparring" clips, they have already been posted in the bad ninjutsu video thread iirc, and I pointed out some of the flaws in them already. If not, post a link so we can all see. He isn't a shihan though, but a juyuushi.
     
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Oitsuki is a sneak attack because you do 4 things in one attack while moving in a way that makes it hard for him to predict or interdict your attack.

    1) Remove/neutralise his guard and ability to counter with your lead hand/leg movement
    2) Start to compromise his balance with the first arm/leg coordinated entry
    3) Hit him in the face from a vulnerable position from a straight diagonal attack(side of his face/temple area not head on)
    4) Butt, kick, bump, or stomp his foot or attack his leg with your rear leg as you strike(basic ashirai kata) above with the fist, killing one bird with two stones(built in redundancy to increase the effect and prepare you for the next move in a stable grounded way).

    You become a smaller target as a matter of course in weapons based arts that don't rely on armour for protection. You move from a mirror guard to a mixed guard position while neutralising his guard and balance and moving to his outside gate with oitsuki(you can do the opposite but it is riskier). The step forward destroys his stance integrity as he is getting punched so two stones for one bird(redundancy in case one doesn't work and also easier to followup from there).

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzg0T2F-k9c"]Tsuki - YouTube[/ame]

    Here is a good example of some of the issues people miss when practicing this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    PR I put thanks on your post because you are providing useful information.

    I actually don't know what oitsuki is supposed to really be. I learned it from karate and Aikido. The Aikido oitsuki was pretty much a one step punch so that timing could be developed.

    The karate oitsuki is not along one line. However it does have a surprise element to it with a switch step. With left leg forward, when the opponent moves towards you, you move your left foot back halfway without turning the shoulders. It looks like you are retreating, but then you step forward with the right and punch. Since it looks like you are moving away, when you step forward and punch, it can catch the opponent off guard because they think they are at a safe distance, but they are not.
     
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    That wasn't aimed at you but people within the art who still think it's a training punch or some other such silliness. I posted a video, that has flaws but can give a simple visual of what it looks like. If you watch this video of Kono sensei, you can see some similar principles at work as those I alluded to above.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gHwZTiLBJ0"]Taijutsu-Kono - YouTube[/ame]

    He's a bit too over analytical, but he moves well.

    One of the entire points of oitsuki is penetration, so staying squared off doesn't make sense from our perspective. Also, you drop your centre of gravity and attack into the opponent, not just try to punch him.
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    By the way, the guy in the video is landing heel-to-toe. Is this because of the leg attack (attack leveraging against their shin)? Not using falling step mechanics for power, but the heel-to-toe allows shifting and such things as leveraging your shin against the opponent's shin while you strike them with a punch.
     
  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    There are several things he's not showing correctly...:eek:
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Excellent video to me. What's he saying between 3:59 and 5:08? The two examples of different ways to punch are exactly the two types I was talking about. The pulling force is what he demonstrates as what he uses. At 4:09-4:20 he shows a different way, which is the pushing force that I was talking about.

    I basically punch like he does, but not just with lead straight punch but with reverse punch too. I add a little bit more push at the end to drive the strike through the target, but that is maybe because of my boxing and karate training. I still prefer to keep the push until the last possible moment.

    I even use this with closer ranged striking, just keep my arm bent more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
  20. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    Some of them have, some of them haven't been in a real fight. Just like in any other art. They are used to taking a beating though en enduring a lot of pain.

    I agree, even being japanese doesn't make you skilled at something you havent practiced...

    I agree, that is why in my dojo when doing kata all the attacks come from shizen no kamae and in very close distance. The closer the distance the better.
    If you can do it close distance, you can do it long distance. The other way around not so likely.

    With tsuki to train the form, and to instill the right structure, possibilities, line, feignts and movement it is benificial to train going from say ichimonji no kamae to tsuki. But it is not beficial for tori to receive such an attack.
    Pressure makes better technique, that means speed, accuracy and power behind the attack you are practicing against.

    Most movements are meant to be instant.
    For instance, lets take omote gyaku from kihon happo.
    Most practitioners learn this in an 1, 2, 3, 4 etc step sequence. This is for learning the right form, structure, line etc. But this is not the actual technique you should be doing in a real fight. You dont have time for 3-5 steps. You have one step to do the technique and everything has to come together in that one step.
    So now the educational form of 3-4 step is seen as the real technique, not the 1 step. because most practitioners, including highlevel shihan have never learned the proper form and cannot do the one step. What is even worse they think that any 3-4 step sequence will work so they make up the steps as they go.
     

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