Punching correctly in the Takamatsuden

Mod note: As ap has mentioned earlier, this is a public forum where discussion is encouraged. That being said, shall we refrain from continuing the back and forth about who can and can't say what and move on to parsing impacts, force and punching and the lot?

 

Yes, it is different kinds of strikes. However, I think we can talk about the same strike done different ways and cover the same points.

The "steel rod" versus "ball at end of chain" I think refers to a strike done with more mass but slower velocity compared to one done with less mass but higher velocity.

For purposes of this discussion, I hope we can agree that a straight lead punch with smaller mass at higher velocity feels different than getting hit with a straight lead punch with more mass behind it but at slower velocity.

Can the same person do a straight lead punch in BOTH ways? Yes he/she can. In fact, finding that balance between the two is something I think we all try to do.

The "ball at the end of chain" is what I call pulling force. By pulling, I specifically mean the feeling that the fist is being pulled towards the target. Pulling force is initiated from the waist, but one can argue that it is the hip that does most of the movement. The body has to move with the correct technique for the hand to move directly towards the target while in a relaxed state. The feeling should be that of least resistance, such as a rope attached to the hand, pulling the fist directly to the target. Pulling force is associated with softness because the hand moves towards the target effortlessly.

The "steel rod" is what I call pushing force. This is best done when the body is aligned properly behind the punch (e.g. sharper triangles). The feeling is that you are thrusting towards the target or like you are extending the arm by pushing your hand forward. Pushing force is associated with hardness because you are driving through the target.

I've found personally that I prefer to start with pulling force (it is much quicker since the hand moves towards the target right away). This requires good full body movement and technique to feel that the hand moves effortlessly after the initial "kick start" with the hips (e.g. it is like when you kick a ball, once you kick it, the ball flies on its own towards the goal. There is no feeling of constant force behind it).

I prefer to wait until the last possible moment to use the pushing force to drive through the target. Pushing force is not rigid or tense. What makes it hard is that your body is aligned behind it (e.g. so it is like you run them over with a truck rather than hit them with the ball).

So pulling force is like ball in flight (no constant force, just relaxed) and the push at the last possible moment is like running them over with a truck (strong alignment and structure).

 

When I post, especially longer posts, it can be hard to understand what I'm saying and even sometimes comes out the opposite of what I mean. I will try to clarify better.

I described two types of forces to use in striking:

1) Pulling force - This type of force has the following attributes:

• Efficiency of motion (hand moves towards target directly)
• Arms are relaxed (meaning that the angle formed at the elbow stays mainly fixed; however, if the arm starts bent and the arm is straightened, this is done before the actual punch starts in a relaxed manner such as using the hammer principle).
• The hand moves slower and then has great acceleration over a short distance at the end of the strike.
• Described as hitting like a ball at the end of a chain. This would be crushing force, collapsing force, or hydrostatic shock due to the acceleration into the body.
• During the great acceleration over a shorter distance, the body is somewhat disengaged from the hand, like the chain links with the ball at the end. If the body was stopped/jammed, the hand would still be able to continue forward for a bit towards the target.

2) Pushing force - This type of force has the following attributes:

• Not known for efficiency of motion because hand generally moves to a chamber or starting position before moving towards the target. However, once moving towards the target, it can be very direct/efficient.
• Arms are not as relaxed (meaning that the angle formed at the elbow does not stay the same, the arm is straightened with force behind it).
• The hand moves with a more constant acceleration over a longer distance.
• Described as hitting like a steel rod. This would be a poking or impaling force due to the being less over a longer distance (e.g. lower total velocity). It is driving the strike through the target.
• During the slower acceleration over a longer distance, the body is behind the strike like the steel rod. If the body were to be stopped/jammed, the hand would stop almost immediately.

Personally, I feel that punches are combination of pulling force followed by pushing force. I believe that the pulling force methods (the hand moves directly towards the target in a relaxed manner and then near the end, accelerates greatly over a short distance) should be the primary method of delivery with the pushing force (driving the strike through the target with your body behind it) should come at the last possible moment. I think this is key to highest velocity with most mass of your body behind the strike. Alignment is very important once you start hitting with more force or else you risk self injury. Plus proper alignment helps with the transfer of force into the target instead of you bouncing back due to the force.

Here is a video with five different boxers and their jabs:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBnBcGst5CI"]TOP 5 GREATEST JAB's EVER - YouTube[/ame]

5 Riddick Bowe - Mostly pulling force with pushing force at the end

4 George Foreman - Some pulling force with mostly pushing force

3 Lennox Lewis - Mostly pulling force with pushing force at the end

2 Ali - Mostly pulling force with pushing force at the end

1 Holmes - Some pulling force with mostly pushing force

All the last three above showed both kinds of force. When they wanted more of their body behind the strike they used more pushing force, but when they wanted more acceleration over a short distance, pulling force.

 

I thought this thread was specifically about some of the punching methods found within the Takamatsuden arts? Everyone is posting about content of unrelated arts?

In the Takamatsuden, some methods are training drills used for many reasons other than to just perform a strike.

Also "tsuki" doesn't actually mean "punch"

Correct body alignment, correct transition, correct contact are all important. I have seen flat-footed landing (not crashing down on a flat foot though!) and heel to toe used in different instances. MOst important IMO is not "thumping" somebody, but stealing their space, forcing a reaction type thing, and to understand appropriate usage, which is generally not attacking from square one, but under cover of other things going on.

Maybe to understand tsuki, for those from other arts, it is best to try it with a yari, bo, sword. With a sword not just a "sword tsuki" but observe the motion of the right hand as you perform a cut from daijodan. Look at the shape it traces through space if you remove the sword from the picture.

 

Tsuki with a sword isn't tsuki with a fist though is it, tsuki with a weapon isn't a step through lunge, its a front hand lunge instead.

And if your strike isn't aimed at thumping someone, it won't do any of the other things you list either.

 

You misunderstood what I actually wrote though unfortunately.

I explained about the sword tsuki. I said not a sword tsuki but a cut from daijodan. Try it out and see for yourself.

And yes, a tsuki can take space without the strike actually finding its target, that is pretty basic. Attempted strikes that fail to hit the target still affect the space. I may have said the point is not to thump, but meant more that is does not have to. A jab can affect a boxer without actually striking him afterall...it can make him react. It can be a set-up to something else.

Plus you can sword tsuki from the other foot with or without a step through, but that's another discussion.

 

Nope, its a false argument, plus I've been there and done that, you'd be better arguing a shuto attack is the same as kesa giri, if that's the point your making.

 

No that is not the point I was making. Sorry I have not been able to be more clear.

I am talking about the path of the HAND in the cut, not the blade.

I am not talking about comparisons to say that a is like b other than to discuss the correct body mechanics in the arts being discussed. Which are common to many movements.

 

So Fusen, what is your idea on how the correct punch is done in the Takamatsuden? (Just to return to the OP)

In the Takamatsuden though, not about how it is done in other arts that you may feel are superior in the punching area.

 

The hand in a downwards cut from daijodan with a sword is the same as the hand in tsuki from ichmonji no kamae?

Doesn't the trajectory of the hand in the first case (downwards) differ from the second case (forwards)?

 

Different ryuha have different basics, but if you means the generalised bjkn/etc 'basic' I started a thread about this year's ago on here, I'll see if I can find it, but my thoughts were just a work in progress, and now I'm more concerned about applying this movement to entering into range for kumikata in Judo / BJJ / MMA.

 

Entering into range? So gaining distance and space?

 

And yes the different ryuha have very different ways of striking, but I assume the thread is about the generic booj (however the hell we define that I don't really know) strike that everyone sees all the time on youtube. Also some compare right and wrong when they are looking at two different thing.

So yes discussing the basic is full of these pitfalls.

 

Nope, taking there's away, - wacking them in MMA, or using the threat of wacking them to set up angles,
Grappling, getting attachments, driving them off base whilst staying in base, or using the threat of that to set up angles etc.

 

Which is what I was getting at and you said would not work!

I think we use different terminology to mean the same thing.

 

If your part of a chain of transmission the right way to do something is how the top guy says so

As hatsumi doesn't teach its how you chosen shihan teaches


If your chosen shihan is 'good' this should also be the same as whats effective under resistance, under a few differing rules, which doesn't mean you don't also have to train randori to get those skills.

 

If your initial strike is not intended to work, then any follow on won't either, even a fake has to be sold as a true attack or the reaction to it won't be predictable.

If you grapple its like an arm drag to single/double etc doesn't matter how good your tackle is, if your arm drag sucks.

 

Yes obviously. Why do you think I meant different?

Where do I say that the strike does not need to appear to be real? Or indeed BE real, but if it fails to land it is still not wasted?

 

Imo- Most important is thumping someone, everything else that follows is if that fails, its also the order it naturally occurs, and the order you want to avoid an opponent doing to you.

I.e. the most important is not getting thumped whilst thumping them, from that springs everything else.

 

And there we disagree. If the MOST important thing is to land the thump, you may over commit and leave yourself at a disadvantage.

Right, phew, lets leave that there and move on.