Punching correctly in the Takamatsuden

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    You've misspelt "Catch"
     
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Only if the cat has been taught the secret killing bite to break the neck by the mama cat :)

    Otherwise, the cat drags the mouse into the house where it proceeds to chase it around while knocking over anything that gets in the way, like your lamp. :cry:
     
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Weirdly I'm also not arguing that there's a deadly secret punch, what I am saying is that mechanics matter, and not every delivery system is equal, theirs a reasons sparring heavy arts tends to be the most reliable, but that doesn't mean practical matters cant be discussed.
     
  4. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Really?

    Heel first is taught by several Japanese shihan. Specifically: Seno-sensei, Noguchi-sensei, Oguri-sensei and Nagato-sensei

    On uneven surfaces heel first is pretty fundamental......Give it a go

    BTW I don't think flat footed is wrong, just don't be monotonous in your approach and heel first is a good foundational method
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  5. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Adding a picture of Ishizuka-sensei's punch to back up my point
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Sorry, but that's overly simplistic.....

    For example: If you are preventing your target from absorbing the blow the transference of energy is quite different from a scenario where you are not controlling your opponent
     
  7. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    No it doesn't. Not at all. This is a discussion forum, after all. You understand I wasn't targeting you, yes? And I wasn't being snarky. Simply pointing out that technical explanations are never going to capture the whole picture and that isolating variables, etc. has limited bearing on actual performance (in which the variables are vast, encompassing everything from fatigue in the practitioner to traction on the ground, etc.). Seems to me that the most practical question/answer is "can I deliver this punch convincingly and reliably?"

    If the answer appears to be "yes," then three cheers. Ya know?
     
  8. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    It certainly ignores a lot of the other variables of combat, yes, because my entire reply has been directed at this:

    Because the truth is there is impact. There is no kind of impact. There is location, trajectory, area of impact, and force transferred. When all of those variables are the same the effect will be the same. A straight punch transferring 1000 pounds of force on an 8" square area hitting the solar plexus is equal to any other straight punch with those same variables. If I hit with a hook and land perpendicular to the striking surface (therefore the trajectory is the same) with the same amount of force and surface area it will have the same effect. You can't have a quality of 1000 pounds or 1000 newtons. You just have numerical values.
    This is basic physics and RP's quote above is in contradiction to that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Going heel-to-toe actually changes the technique from both feet moving to one foot moving (or stepping). I prefer heel-to-toe to take advantage of weight shift by rocking and turning. However, when punching with heel-to-toe step, there is a delay between the foot and the punching power because you are still in the process of shifting weight forward. It makes a lot more sense to go heel-to-toe when you want to utilize the weight shift/rocking when applying joint locks and other leverage techniques combined with your striking.

    Going flat foot to me is more realistic for striking on the move. This has no delay between foot landing and fist hitting. It makes more sense to me because you don't want a delay between body moving and fist hitting. Also, in combat on the move, you don't step one foot at a time but instead, both feet move together as the movement is generated from the hips.

    Example of times when landing flat foot makes sense (all on the move/weight already forward):

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Khud5e3ro"]Hatsumi sensei sword - YouTube[/ame]

    The following shows both. Striking on the move is done with landing foot flat with smaller weight shift (both feet can move together). There are also situations for regular stepping (heel-to-toe) where it looks more like walking when the weight shifts from on leg to the other more noticeably.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i27obVRzIPc"]Jo and Bokken Demonstration by 'O Sensei æ¤èŠ 盛平 - YouTube[/ame]

    Primarily in Aikido, the weight is shifted forward, so the ability to move both feet together comes more naturally than stepping one foot at a time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'm not sure you originally included force transferred in your equations.

    I think HOW the force is transferred is what was meant by different kinds of impact.
     
  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Exactly. Hence the analogy of different bullet types.

    We have one inch punch like techniques. The resulting affects on the body are different due to the variables you point out.

    This thread wasn't meant to be a comparison of exactly equal methods of striking, but a discussion of how to punch correctly in our tradition as it came up in another thread. People then jumped in with different agendas to discuss tangential and irrelevant aspects of punching.

    Oitsuki is based on having some control of the opponent's guard and stance. Without such, it would be a dangerous way to attack(unless they were already rocked or unaware).
     
  12. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    I think it's very important to note that there is a huge gap of difference between what a shihan actually teaches, and what others assume he is teaching by what they see (whether in person, or in videos, or even worse – in still shots).

    If I look at Ishizuka sensei or Kacem, it is now clear to me that they don't strike the ground with the heel. But it was not always the case. What I have practiced and what I have been exposed to has led me to see the movement differently. The fact that Ishizuka sensei for example often touches ground slightly earlier with the rear part of the sole than the front is – as so many other details – not something to be copied without the proper internal structure. There are many things going on inside the legs, ankles, knees, etc. that are just not visible to the eye. For this reason, looking at videos and stills (and even in person demonstrations) can be deceiving if one is not part of one-to-one transmission.

    Now, if someone like Senō sensei has actually said and demonstrated to many that one should land heel first, then so be it. But it is my personal experience that what a shihan of such a caliber shows, and even says in public, is not necessarily what he would show and teach a disciple in private.

    What's important, in my opinion, is to realise that there are many ways of stepping and moving the feet. But the way to practice correctly, with the correct steps (double meaning here), is often specific not something that can be picked up just by watching...
     
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Watch this video again.

    Hatsumi Sensei's footwork is pretty clear and concise throughout and you can see what kind of footfall he favours. Are there times when you would move heel to toe? Of course, but there are times when it is dangerous or impossible. One example, is the jumping switching footwork of Koto ryu.

    Interestingly enough, there is another secret to power generation in the Takamatsuden demonstrated just after the 5 minute mark several times. I wonder how many people picked up on it? It is found in weapons work and with the basic tsuki and attacks from the arts.
     
  14. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    this is a public forum. if you don't want people questioning your posts or commenting on them, don't post.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  15. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    In that case the wording "kinds of impact" is clearly inaccurate and led to misrepresentation of what the person intended to convey. Impact is kinetic energy transfer and again there is no "kind" there is only values.
     
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Nobody is questioning whether or not the forum is public. You keep seeming to want to respond to things that are tangential to the topic.

    Nobody was questioning whether all punches hurt or not. So you are arguing something nobody ever questioned in the first place. So now that your concern has been sated, can we get back on topic(you know the thing in the OP)?
     
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy

    Well you have the inititial value, how's its transfered, and what effect that has combatively.

    A slow, heavy impact that can be ridden, is very different to a light fast impact that can't be, even if the total value is the same.
     
  18. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Which is where you are then expanding to comparing different kinds of strikes and different responses to those different kinds of strikes.
     
  19. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i'll post whenever and whatever i want. if you have a problem, bring it up with the mods. i have neither insulted you, nor broken the tos.

    i've already asked you multiple times to proceed. you seem to be the one that cannot. please proceed. i told you i was learning about your art, which even to that you seem agitated by and you've made veiled insults to boot--which by the way i have not responded to.

    if i feel like posting off-topic or tangentially i will do so at my own discretion--too bad for you.
     
  20. Fudo-shin

    Fudo-shin Valued Member

    If nothing else in this thread, I learned how to use the word "tangential" in a sentence by Pr lol :)
     

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