Punching correctly in the Takamatsuden

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award


    He means osoto gari, the osoto series is given the generic nage name in the bjkn either as a catch all title or because the people dont know any better.
     
  2. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    There are other strikes that are used, but the tsuki is what you will see more often. The concept is the same for the majority of the other attacks though, in the sense that you will still step forward and "give" your entire body to the opponent.
     
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I don't train takamatsuden anymore, but when I did I was always told to always keep myself in base when striking/moving etc as if they want to move you, they should be able to move you, and not rely on you moving yourself.
     
  4. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Not sure what you mean by this

    The vast majority of the attacking methods in the buj involve controlling the opponent before striking or throwing

    The most commonly used attacks are
    - Tsuki - control his wrist / sleeve and step in to deliver a punch
    - Grab lapel, control his movement and deliver a punch without a step
    - Grab sleeve, separate his elbow from his torso and punch
    - Grab sleeve and lapel controlling for grappling &/or kicks

    In all cases when you step in it is to attack with your leg as well as the arm

    If the attacks don't have an initial controlling element then they are typically surprise attacks where you are punching or attacking with shuto or a "grippy happa ken" from a natural position or walking
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
  5. garth

    garth Valued Member

    David Harrison posted...

    Worked OK for me.
     
  6. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    Well, when you're the uke you're not controlling your opponent before delivering the famous Bujinkan tsuki. I know you're simulating an aggressor, but that's counterproductive since nobody really moves like that and you will simply learn how to apply techniques in a person who puts himself in an extremely weird and out of balance position.
     
  7. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Continuing the attack only makes sense if the conditions are appropriate for it - of course

    Tori's movement should create this situation
     
  8. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    Either a stepping "O tsuki" lunge punch or non-stepping boxing-style right haymaker, jodan uke works. It's about getting off the line and controlling distance. The arm won't hang out there for you to do an oni kudaki against, but that's just for training. When he's tired of not being able to hit you and goes for the clinch, that oni kudaki will be there.

    It's like saying, "A boxer isn't going to stand there like a heavy bag and let you unleash on him". Of course not, he's a training tool. When BJJ guys are drilling a mount escape, they're not headbutting each other in the nose, even though they know that can be expected in reality.
     
  9. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    I've never drilled any technique in BJJ that wasn't a decent representation of what's possible in real combat. There's a difference between a drill and sparring, in the sense that in sparring your opponent is resisting you. Attacking someone and leaving your arm hanging while your opponent grabs it and does whatever the hell he wants to do with it is just a bad fighting concept. The techniques are not practical. You can train with an heavy bag and still execute effective punches that you could use in a real fight. That's what you call training something. You're training the correct way to punch and to move. 85% of what you will see in BJK consists in a very slow application of a very unpractical technique. It's almost like you're training for an alternative reality.
     
  10. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    I agree with most of that. The problem isn't with the ryuha or the techniques, just the way they are trained. Too much "flow" in the Bujinkan. I wouldn't say too much kata, rather too much kata without kime, and of course, not enough pressure testing and randori.

    Many of the same techniques exist in Judo, and work perfectly, so it must be a training issue.
     
  11. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I feel like this thread ought to be titled "Poor punching is ineffective"

    Anyone can go to youtube and find someone making a hash of a high percentage BJJ technique and say "That's not practical"

    RoninX - I'm sorry if you trained at a buj dojo where they left
    But that's not the correct way to perform tsuki
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  12. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Dunc posted

    Which dojo was that by the way?
     
  13. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    https://youtu.be/gIkCyo78myY?t=26s

    Then you should tell that to Hatsumi and his students, because that's how he has always done in, and that's how it has always been done in the Bujinkan in general. Not in my dojo, in the Bujinkan. Everytime i talk about something like this people tell me that i didn't train properly and that it's my dojo's problem. But i've never seen anyone showing me how it's done correctly, despite having trained with the biggest names in the Bujinkan. There's always some dojo out there where things are supposedly trained "correctly". I would love to meet those people, since they seem to know so much about how to deliver a proper tsuki.

    I don't think anyone in this forum is qualified to tell me that the way Hatsumi does it and the way his oldest students do it is the wrong way. It's not the wrong way, it's the Bujinkan way. If you don't like it and do it differently, you're not following what the soke teaches. Even if what he teaches is ineffective, which it is.

    And if you need more videos of the japanese Shihan leaving their arm hanging while the soke does whatever he wants, i can arrange that for you. Though it's not really necessary since it's all over youtube.

    https://youtu.be/Ey_b8vbKW7k?t=1m3s

    Hey, next time you guys see the Soke or one of the japanese Shihan you need to tell them that they're doing it wrong. Then you give them the address of your dojos, where it's done right, so they can drop by and learn. Apparently, they're not a good example of what the Takamatsuden is all about.
     
  14. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    So what do you think of the clips / methods that I posted?
     
  15. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    What clips? If you posted something, i didn't notice.
     
  16. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Here you go

     
  17. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    I like the technique you demonstrated in the last video. Grabbing the opponent's arm and delivering a tsuki is something i see no reason for not to work. You can do many variations based on the same principle. I would personally not practice it as a defense to a punch, because, like i said, i don't believe in grabbing someone's arm or hand while they're trying to punch you. It's just too difficult and will probably work against very small, slow and weak people. But as simple form of attack, it's perfectly viable. You control the opponent and punch him. Simple and easy.

    I love to watch random street fights on youtube. Sometimes it's scary how fast and vicious the average fit dude with no MA training can be. It's a great way of understanding how people actually move in real life and how fast a fist can be, even with no training. It's almost always fast enough for not giving you any chance of grabbing his arm in motion.
     
  18. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    It's a separate point, but in the kata the punching arm is either caught by the sleeve (much easier in my experience, even with folk retracting) or the elbow
     
  19. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Years ago when I was a mere youth and studied Lau Gar Kung Fu it was what my teacher admonished me for, for in competition I would always grab the sleeve of my opponent when he punched at me in competition. Apparently your not allowed to do that.
     
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Which is exactly the same as happens in judo grip fighting.

    There's always a commonality between anything based on real life.
     

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