Punching correctly in the Takamatsuden

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I feel a little bit like the thread is centred on people's perception of the buj punch

    And I tend to agree with the points being made if the context is the fairly common approach taken to the punch - i.e. Stand miles away and punch in with the furthest limb ignoring the opportunities to control during the entry

    However, my understanding of the punch differs from this so it may be helpful to separate the discussions somewhat

    I've done my best to represent this and in my view (& experience) it works quite well in a pressured context, particularly if wearing a gi and not wearing gloves

    Clearly it's not optimal for MMA, boxing, etc otherwise these arts would have evolved to the same place, but I do feel that this approach is ok
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Even the boxing punch has issues for boxing if you remove the gloves - people tend to think BKB is just boxing with no gloves on and they are wrong
     
  3. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    Well, more or less. Like i said, punching is not a complex concept to me. Anything that you can hit your opponent with is viable.

    It all depends on how you use it and against who you use it. Will i ever attempt a tsuki from a significant distance? Not at all. But as a surprise attack, if you're standing close to your opponent, it can hurt them, for sure. I'm just not 100% how much better this is than any other approach, any other punch.

    My main problem with the tsuki is that it doesn't feel natural to me. I can't speak for you or for anyone else, but to me it isn't a natural body movement. I remember that when my instructor asked me to do several tsuki attacks i always felt awkward and exposed while doing it. The moment i end the movement, most of my body weight is in my front leg. It's uncomfortable and i don't feel well balanced.

    [​IMG]

    Now, just so people don't start telling me i don't know what a tsuki is, well, there you have, Ishizuka sensei. I think he is a very reliable source of information. Just look at his body. From that position is extremely easy to completely break his balance, that's why sometimes the uke falls so easily. He is already unbalanced when he finishes the attack, and i don't think you should ever be in such a fragile position when you attack someone.

    There's a reason why most professional strikers don't strike like that. There's a reason why most of the times they don't even switch their legs in order to deliver a right hand. And the reason is that they wanna keep their balance and ability to move easily in any direction. That's very difficult to do when most of your weight is in one leg and you're completely opened to all sorts of attacks.

    Untrained people also don't do it because, like i said, it doesn't feel natural. It's not an instinctive body movement. And a lot of times even people who train in the Bujinkan don't do it when they're actually fighting. And the average joe basically uses "bad boxing". If you ever watch a street fight, that's bad boxing. Similar body mechanics, since they feel comfortable and natural, but just horrible technique.

    I remember Joe Rogan talking about a few Kung Fu guys who do lots of crazy stuff and believe it's all very real. He then said that one day they actually fought, and during the fight they were basically swinging for the fences and hugging each other on the floor almost like an MMA fight. Why? Because those are the moves that feel right to the body. A couple of days ago i was also watching a couple of wing chun guys going at it on Youtube and they were basically just swinging for the fences like average dudes. When things get real, people abandon their crazy and fancy moves and trade punches like two drunk guys at a bar.

    That's your natural instinct. I think what sports like boxing do is simply to educate your natural instincts. They don't force your body to move in a way that you never thought about moving before. They just take your natural moves and make them more efficient. You don't need to move like a monkey and do all sorts of crazy stuff. You're not a monkey. You're a person. You already have a fighting pattern encoded in you, even if you don't train anything. You just need to perfect it and correct the mistakes.

    With a Tsuki, as it's shown in the X-Kans, you can cover a greater distance, since you pretty much do a big step forward. But how fast can you be doing that? It's easy to telegraph. What's more efficient, and this is what pro strikers do, is simply to understand distance. Footwork, try to get close enough to your opponent so you can hit him fast enough while still keep a safe distance.

    So yeah, basically is this. I don't force anyone to agree with me. If you think a tsuki is great, then awesome. Go for it. I just think it's a punch that, while it can have its use, if it's the only way you know how to use your fists, you're gonna become a very limited puncher.

    Sure, it can be a tool in your arsenal. A spinning fist can also be a tool. But now imagine that all you did were spinning fists. You trained to defend against them and you learned how to apply them. Not sure it would be the most practical way of training combat or self defense.

    The way i look at the tsuki is this: To me it looks like something someone read in a document, or saw in a drawing, and then simply tried to interpret it. I'm not saying it's the case. It's just my theory. But i don't believe this was the way anyone actually used to punch. Maybe bad descriptions and bad drawings made the movement being interpreted this way, which looks very unpractical.

    If you're training just for "cultural purposes", then i guess it makes no difference. Now if you really wanna learn how to defend yourself, i don't really think it's a good idea to adopt the tsuki as your main way of punching.

    I don't think anyone needs to carry the flag of any style and believe everything it teaches is sacred. You can learn so much if you simply stop being afraid to think in a critical way, rather than just trust people and believe whatever they say. It doesn't have to be black or white. I respect some of Hatsumi's skills and teachings. But i've seen a looooooooot of garbage from him. It came to a point where i felt i was insulting my own intelligence for being so devoted to him and his style. I take from NinpƓ Taijutsu what i feel is effective. Yeah, some people might say i'm wrong for doing it, or that i don't know what's effective and what's not, but at the end of day, i can't let others decide how am i gonna live my life.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    One thing I can see with the tsuki is translating it into weapon work. Sword arts (iirc) often have more of a stepping forward to cover distance and range than something like boxing.
    But as a stand alone type of attacking punch it seems way to big a movement to catch anyone but the most flat footed of people.
     
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Whilst I agree with most of your comments the picture shows the fully extended final position after hitting elbow deep through a target, if you take any distance strike at its fully extended position most of your points will also apply.

    Most of the flaws in TMA are really in the methods of practise.
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I remember Please Reality saying that it is a potential 3 attacks in one motion, I guess it makes more sense in that way.

    Still though, it makes no sense to me to step through when the lead hand can do the job more efficiently.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  7. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I wonder if the training, and how it relates to the Tsuki and its proper applications is related to the age of the practitioner? What I am trying to say is, Way back When, when these arts were perported to be in use, weren't they training in the schools from childhood? I expect they have little threat from adults, out side of occasional raids and bandits and other things, so they have little need for immediately applicable stuff.

    So that by the time they are adults they have been taught many of the real applications of the basic movement as it relates to the various kata. Thus making them far more capable of throwing down in a real conflict.
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    PR also said it isn't a punch. Look at the hands in the picture. What are the striking surfaces?
     
  9. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    So not being very knowledgeable about your art, does the bjkn tell you how to defeat the counter to your punch?
     
  10. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Hi RoninX

    I agree with your points as they apply to the very commonly seen buj punch

    Probably the majority of people here will agree with your criticisms of this method of punching - it's not very good. So I'm not sure how this thread will help anyone

    I get the impression that you're keen to highlight how the things you've seen in the buj are not practical and in my view that's helpful

    However, I do think that our understanding of the basic punching methods is different. Perhaps your understanding is aligned to the correct method, but I don't think so

    As an aside Soke taught some important points or corrections about punching at subsequent UK taikais when he saw everyone's punching technique

    I've posted clips of the correct method as I understand it. This is based on my asking the obvious questions when in Japan
    Once I'd received this correction a whole load of buj movements started to make sense. The tehodoki in jodan uke for example

    So given we all agree that the "stand miles away and punch with the rear hand, hoping your opponent doesnt move an inch in the meantime" is a pretty poor approach I wonder if we could discuss the merits / demerits of the correct (in my understanding) methods?

    Apologies for the poor quality of the videos & sound, but they are relatively short :)

     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  11. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Ronin X posted

    And I must say I find that answer most complexing and heres why.

    As a practitioner/former practitioner of the Bujinkan you must be aware that Jodan Tsuki is a technique that is usually taught when one begins the art. For example I spend a lot of time teaching Sanshin and getting people to respond during Kihon Happo (Koshi Kihon Sanpo) from a person throwing a Jodan Tsuki. The reason being is that these are "Beginners Forms" and teach the basics of punching, receiving, taisabaki etc.

    Now of course later on we learn other ways of punching, kicking and striking but Jodan Tsuki is where we start. This is why your picture of Ishizuka Sensei throwing a Jodan Tsuki above was actually taken at the very first UK Tai Kai in the UK when EVERYBODY was a beginner in this country, and therefore people needed to be shown how to punch correctly in the beginning form.

    So as this is a something we teach from the beginning your argument is basically saying "That beginning form in this art I don't think is the most effective" which is like going to do boxing and saying "I got taught how to jab last night and I don't think its the most effective way of hitting" or "I went to judo last night and learnt how to do an Osoto Nage and I don't think its the most effective way of throwing someone"

    In other words you are taking a basic technique and then saying its not that effective and my answer is "Well why would it be? its a beginners technique", even though you yourself have said it is effective in certain situations, and my answer to that would be that a hammer is effective in some situations but other times you need a screwdriver.

    As you are well there are many other ways of striking in this art BUT you have to start somewhere and sometimes the technique you start with is not always the most effective.

    However I will agree with you and say that when you get people who punch with their arms out and leave them out there hanging in space it kind of makes a mockery of the art.

    BTW as I write this I can think of several kata that we do that leave the opponent wide open for a Jodan Tsuki that they would have great difficulty countering.
     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    But a jab and osoto nage aren't beginner's techniques, are they? They are used by people at all levels to great effect.

    There is a difference between a technique taught to beginners and a beginner's technique. I personally don't think it's helpful l to teach anything that isn't functional and applicable as-is.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  13. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    The method shown on the picture is, in my understanding, an exercise to increase the range of motion and build strength and flexibility - similar to sanshin
    As opposed to being a foundational method of attack
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  14. garth

    garth Valued Member

    David Harrison posted

    Forgive me i'm not a boxer or Judo player they were just examples.

    Are they mutually exclusive?

    I guess it depends what you mean by "functional and applicable as is". The Jodan Tsuki is very functional and applicable its just that when many people see it on youtube they usually just see the lunging punch prior to someone defending against it. Of course theres a lot more to it than that. As I said before in my previous post

    "BTW as I write this I can think of several kata that we do that leave the opponent wide open for a Jodan Tsuki that they would have great difficulty countering".
     
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    What about in unscripted, resistant training, or in real world application?
     
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    As someone who's never been in an X-Kan dojo, and only seen video (other than training a little with someone who was in a Hayes school years ago), it would appear that it has become a de facto foundational method of attack. Would you disagree with that impression?
     
  17. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    There's no 'osoto nage' in Judo. "Big outer throw" isn't terribly descriptive.
     
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    There's at least 4 different points under discussion here that are all getting mixed up

    1) distancing -
    2) the step through action
    3) same arm same leg striking (isolateral)
    4) position at full extension.

    Unfortunately all 4 points are commonly misunderstood by most practioners, which straight away limits their ability.
     
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    O Soto Gari is pretty much the same thing as the Buj osoto nage, no?
     
  20. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    It is common yes, but not correct (in my view)
     

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