Punching correctly in the Takamatsuden

Trying to go back and read your old posts requires some sort of decoder ring. I'm joking about your ability (or lack of) to use the multi-quote function.

Anyway it was in the Ninja Punch thread, but I misremembered, it wasn't really anything you said. In fact, you talked about the switch step (stance change of lead foot) as part of the technique.

There was a video that gapjumper linked to: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhv4x5xdHSQ"]München Taikai 1989 - YouTube[/ame] that showed the strike (done slowly) a few times starting at 36 seconds.

What I was remembering was that the foot landed heel to toe. This implies a weight shift forward.

In boxing (for comparison), the proper falling step lands with the lead foot flat. There is not weight shift at the end, the weight shift has already happened.

In Oi zuki, are you taught to land the foot flat or heel-to-toe? Any particular reason for the method?

 

Every step should be done flat footed. Using heel to toes would be dangerous in slippery conditions.

For some reason Nagato sensei attacks very sloppy,
draggging his hind leg & turning his front foot before the attack.

 

Ditto on the flat footed post by Pankeeki. If you watch most of the punching in the video you just posted, you will see that Hatsumi Sensei moves flat footed. He does some punching after demonstrating the famous(or is it infamous on MAP) neck throw technique. Flat footed throughout. These weren't really demonstrations of oitsuki so I wouldn't draw much into it. Near the end, you can also see why it's important to be able to lift the front leg in kamae against long weapons.

The quote function must've been disabled on my computer, it must be some conspiracy.:evil: I tried to play by the rules, but think my old way of quoting worked best. Everyone's previous text disappears when you try to quote it anyway, not just mine, so some copy and paste has to be done. That's why I won't try to post in the middle of someone's post anymore(too much hassle). But I digress.

Punching the ninja way hurts a lot inside. It goes whang like a steel ball on a steel chain.

 

For what it is worth. From the information provided by PR and Pankeeki, the "falling step" mechanic is being used and properly so I don't see anything not sound about this method from that standpoint for power generation.

I still debate that this technique takes great timing to pull off against a moving target. Therefore, PR's description of what is done beforehand is very important. In other words, I would not lead with oi zuki done with a falling step, but rather set up the technique with something else, and then enter with oi zuki.

IMHO.

 

Well, I would say that if Nagato Sensei wasn't sloppy, Hatsumi Sensei would not as so easily been able to demonstrate the technique he did. Maybe the sloppiness was for that reason.

 

Why would the target be moving? Oitsuki is like a sneak attack. He doesn't see it coming, and if he tries to move it's too late because he's being setup for a trap. Sad thing is that most people don't know this and since there isn't any video online showing it, can only go by what they've seen or been taught. I remember Hatsumi sensei used to get mad at one of the shihan for showing things Hatsumi sensei didn't want shown when he did his demos after Hatsumi sensei showed a basic technique. I guess some things were either too advanced or not for the general public at the time(seen this many times though).

Oitsuki is the whole shebang. What and how the lead hand/foot move determine the followup punch and leg obstruction/attack. Without the front hand and step/weight shift, you don't get to the second part. Just like a one two without the one is a bit dangerous and hard to do, so would be oitsuki without the setup. Not impossible, just hard. Ali landed a few straight rights to start off the fight against Foreman, but it was more of doing the unexpected and being fast enough to pull it off than a sound technique that people should emulate.

 

So what you're saying is.... its too deadly?

 

He also doesn't hit what he's supposedly aiming at.
Unless he wanted to punch the air over Hatsumi's shoulder?

 

getting hit hurts, period: ninja way, boxing way, whatever way.

 

Sorry you didn't get the Bruce Lee reference but there is a difference between different kinds of impacts. Certain ways of striking affect the body differently. Thanks for contributing though.

 

if you want to believe that, it's your prerogative. but please proceed, i always find it fascinating.

 

You do realise they have different kinds of bullets as well? Wonder why.:dunno: Different ways of attack can penetrate the body differently, if you don't realise that then you haven't been around much it sounds.

It's not about belief, but since you don't have any information on punching correctly in the Takamatsuden, why post?

 

1000 psi on a 8" square area delivered to the same location will produce the same result whether it's a wing chun punch, a boxing punch, or an uber deadly ninja otsuki... MATH!

I have never been privy to a more inept comparison. May god have mercy on your soul

There is a severe difference between comparing the difference between a 5.56 armor-piercing hollowpoint and a standard 7.62 FMJ round, and comparing a a straight strike between different martial arts styles.

 

false equivalence much? in other words, a bullet is not a hand or foot. if you think a hand is a bullet, then you haven't been around as much as you make it sound. :dunno:

well, it is a public forum and i can post where ever and whenever i like.

really the only issue i bothered to comment on was your statement on striking in the takamatsuden hurting. i precisely and accurately pointed out that all punches can and do hurt.

keep going, don't let me stop you. it's fascinating to read your explanation of punching in the takamatsuden. i'm never going to do your art, so i'm learning something.

 

And we're back. Sifu my sifu. So, no matter what you hit the same location with, it will produce the same result? Really... So perhaps you should hit something like ballistic gel and compare the results inside instead of on the surface, as this is what some of us are talking about.

No, the point is the same. Different strikes affect the body and penetrate differently. Same with weapons, which is probably how people figured out how to strike different ways with their body to mimic the effects that different weapons create. Nobody is comparing a punch to a bullet, just trying to make an analogy that might be easier understood by those who have no experience with the physical difference between different strikes in terms of penetration, displacement, and what they make the body do. Thought that would be obvious, but perhaps I was wrong.

No, your comedic relief was much needed as we were busy being so serious about our ninjering, thank you. Not all punches hurt, nor do they all hurt equally. If you want to learn, you should listen. Otherwise, you are just interrupting for no good reason. The sentence you first commented on had nothing to do with the bigger discussion, it was more of an aside. People who have felt the striking power of some of the masters of this art understand this point. Someone looking to disrupt the flow of the thread might look for anything no matter how inconsequential, in order to do so. So again, why bother? Nobody is questioning your freedom to post, just your motive.

 

I'd say it's a false comparison,
In bjk your taking a hit for a demo
In sports you take a hit as part of the free flow of sparring.

There's allsorts of strikes in both systems, good bjkn strikes also displace you, think of a good karate step in punch mixed with the penatration step from wrestling.

 

Universal truth, getting hit hard sucks, whether it's from a pro, a ninja, or just the new enthusiastic newbie with no coordination.

 

In order to save the next 5 or so posts about how boxing is better or how the Booj is only for embu(demos), nobody is questioning the efficacy of the strikes from other martial arts. It's a non issue so if you want to discuss it, please kindly do so elsewhere. For those who question that Takamatsuden strikes are effective, that's your prerogative. However, this isn't the place for that discussion either. If you don't think they are, feel free to feel superior about yourself or your art. For those who want to discuss the OP, please do comment so that another thread doesn't get offtrack and reduced to more jiggery-pockery and impure applesauce.

 

A straight punch is a straight punch is a straight punch. If you put 1000 pounds of force into the sternum using the same sized impact device, it doesn't matter HOW you do it. A karate straight punch, boxing cross, wing chun punch, or any other straight strike delivered to the sternum with the same amount of force will cause he same amount of damage. A boxing hook hitting the sternum with the same impact area and delivering the same amount of force as those strikes will do the same amount of damage.

1000 psi delivered through the same sized impact area is the exact same. That is physics.

 

Please try to understand. I know it's hard. We are not discussing whether or not the same amount of force hitting the same way on the same target will have the same effect. Any child could tell you that. The amount of force being kept the same, the shape of the tool impacting the target will change the area impacted and the penetration will be different. Again, this is why I gave the easily understood analogy of gun loads. They have different roles so are made differently to affect different targets or the same targets differently. We clear now?

As relates to punches, different angles, hand shapes, and other aspects will definitely change where and how the body is impacted and create different effects. It's not just about power and speed, or which punch hits hardest.