As part of my current TCC curriculum, I learned a Kwan Dao/ Pu Dao form. You can really use either weapon in the form. I was learning it with a Pu Dao. I was really excited to learn a new weapon. I am starting to see a trend that I have a particular extra liking for long weapons as well. It is a form my GM created. I will be learning a Kwan Dao vs Spear form in my next CLF level. And a couple of years down the road, I am planning on learning a CLF Kwan Dao solo form. I started with with a Pu Dao. My instructor thinks it looks better with this form. Other instructors like the Kwan Dao better for it. But dang if this weapon does not really punish me for not getting the mechanics down properly right away. At first I hurt my shoulder/ collarbone area. It was so bad I had to stop for a while and heal up. When I got back to it, my instructor corrected some bad mechanics. Basically, I was using too much arm and not enough waist/ body. It's just that I never had incorrect body mechanics injure me like that before. I guess due to the weight of the thing? Not that it is all that heavy, but............. Then, I developed "golfer's elbow" from using it. Again, I had to stoop. I used a staff just to keep the form memorized as I healed. I am taping up my elbow and using a brace now. Again, my instructor figured out what I was doing wrong. Again, too much arm, and my arms were too far away when doing flowers, which put too much pressure on my elbows. It hurts my ego, but I am ordering a Wushu light kwan dao. I think I also need to build up to my heavier Pu Dao. I just can't get in the practice I need starting with a heavier weapon. I need to build up to it. It seems like "advanced" forms in both CLF and TCC involve weapons where it is easier to hurt yourself with them! Whacking myself with the three section staff. And you have to be really careful with the moving arm in the CLF wooden dummy or it can really hurt you as well. Did anyone here ever have problems learning the heavier long weapons? Or particular problems with injuries and a particular weapon? Any tips? P.S. I know it isn't a practical weapon. I don't care. Despite the issues, I really like it! This is my horse chopper! It has a dragon etched in the blade. You can't really see it in the pic.
I have no experience with this weapon, other than seeing others practice with it, but I guess the mechanics are really important when dealing with a long and heavy weapon. Starting with a light one sounds like a good idea. When learning weightlifting, you'd also start light, right? I am sure you'll be able to progress to a heavier weapon soon enough I really have no tips to share, but I hope you'll be carefull not to pointlessly hurt yourself and delay your practice What helps me and what I am usually told when trying to figure out the body mechanics is to always slow down more. And it helps. But I am sure you know that... If it makes you feel better, when I was learning spinning the staff and some techniques with nunchaku, I kept hitting my head, shins and everything you could possibly hit. When on a small seminar, my teacher couldn't even watch anymore and put a foam helmet on my head. I looked ridiculous, but didn't even attempt to take it off as it felt much safer allowing me to practice with less fear
Yes I had a few forms from my kungfu days with weapons. The Kwan Dao and Pu Dao are so heavy! Usually the forms are designed around it, but certainly you get worn down quicker. My main focus was NanDao and NanGun. The traditional weapons I had were heavy, especially the first longstick I had. I also went for the wushu style weapons eventually as I had similar issues with shoulders and wrists. The Nandao even through blunt you still get a nasty cut/bruise if you get caught when spinning it, so watch that when you are fatigued and training. I was not into strength training so much then as I thought my body would adapt, but retrospectively I believe I would have had less injuries if I had a better strength training routine at the time.
Pu Dao/ Kwan Dao not something you find in Taijiquan much outside of Chen style, and I'm not 100% sure it is there, but they tend to train more weapons than the other styles. But with that said my first Shifu taught multiple things and I played around with the Guandao (shaolin) and I liked it, but the dang thing is heavy and if you are not careful it will hurt you. I no longer train with one, but I liked it when I did
Heavy weapons don’t let you cheat on your technique. If you do, you get fatigued and worn out quickly, and possibly injured. This is a lesson to really focus on moving from the foundation and the waist, and not just swinging the weapon with the arms. I think that in the modern day, that can be the best lesson you get from these weapons. Take that lesson and apply it to everything else that you do. It opens your eyes.
It is in Chen style. I have pulled it up with the Google. Yeah, I am aware it is not traditional. As I mentioned, my GM created the form. I have a good awareness of what is traditional Yang and what is a newer addition. I have enjoyed both traditional and the forms my GM has created. The newer forms teach me things about TCC. Like this one is teaching me to not cheat on body movements, like Flying Crane mentioned. As long as nothing new is passed on like it it is older, I am good with it. The origins of what we study are clearly stated. New forms get developed by Masters. It's all good and fun and helping me learn. But yeah, you all nailed it. The heaviness of this category of weapons don't allow much margin of error.
Yes, as aaradia wrote, I am learning Chen and this form is taught in my school. I think for practice, those few who learned it also use fairly light weapons. On the other hand, I saw an instructor demonstrate with a I think 8 kg one and it looked really tough. Especially some jumps, the full circle swing around his head and a one-handed lift above the head towards the end of the form. He didn't appear to particularly enjoy that... I suppose it would be really tough to do without good body mechanics, but one needs to have quite a good stamina to begin with as well.
I did a bit of Gwan Dao with a friend for a couple of weeks just because it seemed like an interesting weapon. I found it was mid-way between the heaviness and tip play of the sue mai gwan, and the mobility of a regular gwan, rather than like a regular staff. I think the weight distribution makes using the staff a compensatory error. The weight characteristic is the problem and that's what you're cutting out by going to a staff or a wushu gwan dao. I treated it like a long pole because it really is a heavy weapon with its mass far out in front. Like a tip heavy sabre you guide it instead of swinging it, riding its momentum more than you would with a staff. I wouldn't focus on the form at first, focus on the pieces, how it moves in a large circle, how it reacts, a small circle like rapping on the ground with a long pole, connecting the front arm to the hip when you're doing tight turns with it. Just like doing Indian clubs is useful for sabre you need to build fluidity and ability to guide its momentum. Separate and drill pieces and then come back and work on integration. That's what's always worked for me with weapons I've found new and awkward.
Yeah, the weight distribution made differences I was not expecting. My school always says that the basics of all long weapons are the same. We start with a staff, and then a spear. So, I was expecting there to not be much difference moving to the Po Dao. But the overall weight, and particularly the heaviness at the tip made the same moves feel very different indeed. I think my school emphasizes the sameness. I wasn't prepared for the difference. But there is a bit of a learning curve even for instructors. My school just got this form from our GM in the last year or two. Only three instructors know it. I was the very first student to learn it at my school. I am not sure, but it is even possible I am the first student to learn this form in any of my school's locations. I am quite sure that my instructor will pay closer attention right away to certain body mechanics whenever he teaches this form to another student - at least for us older students. Now that he has seen how it beat me up. The thing is, I wasn't far off. The body mechanics issues weren't blatantly obviously wrong. It was fine tuning little bits that made all the difference in the world. I already learned the whole form. But I will focus on just breaking down certain moves more. Then I will put the pieces together again, as you recommend. Thanks! I am healing up now. Not totally, but it is getting better. A combination of better mechanics, a time out from this form to heal up, and KT tape have me on the mend. And yeah, using the momentum of the weapon to help move it was something my instructor talked about last lesson. I think the key issue was overextension during certain moves. Particularly the Ngong-Dao and the flowers. How to get proper extension, but not overextend, that is what my instructor emphasized my last couple of lessons and it is helping.
They're not wrong....to a degree. Some things end up abandoned when the weapons get longer or heavier, and some movements simply become wider or slower. The longer and heavier weapons get, the more you have to support them close in to your body. Where you can hold your arm farther away with a bo when doing a circle with the tip, with a sue mai gwan or gwan do, the arm in front becomes more like a bicep curl position, and the back arm cranks it more like rowing with an oar. Where you can can easily move a bo with your deltoid across in front of your body, something with the weight of the gwan do you have more need to lock the shoulder and move the whole mass from the trunk. It's easy to get out of position when you're used to being able to move lighter weapons with your arms. This is actually why I always liked the sue mai gwan. There's no cheating it. You either lock the weapon to your trunk, or you can't do anything with it, or not for long even if you're strong. Whole body unification is important for heavy weapons in a way it isn't for lighter weapons. Glad I could help. Take it slowly and work on smoothness over everything and I'm sure you'll get it in no time.
for me using a heavy weapon is like steering a boat. Once the weapon is moving it wants to keep moving in that direction. I had a lot of trouble when I first learnt the eight foot stick. We use heavy versions not the lightweight ones. i was totally unprepared for the power of the things momentum. the hardest thing was learning not to try to strong arm the weapon but rather to guide it. another important lesson i learned was to go easy on the speed. an uncontrollable momentum can build surprisingly quickly. I later began to think of the weapon not as something that i wielded but something with its own identity. it is attached to me but i am also attached to it. the weapon does not move around the user neither does the user move around the weapon. in stead they both move around a compromise zone somewhere between the two.
