Psychiatrist "savagely assaulted" by psych patient/BJJ medalist

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Omicron, Dec 10, 2014.

  1. Omicron

    Omicron is around.

    Just got wind of this event that happened around here recently:

    Penticton is a city of 37,000 located in the interior of British Columbia. Despite this small size, a variety of MMA and BJJ schools have set up shop in town. I've personally been there several times, and I'm familiar with some of the people in the BJJ scene over there. I'm saddened to see an event like this happen so close to home.

    I have lots to say about this story, but I'm curious to hear MAP's opinion first. Does this speak to the dangers of martial arts training? A naïve lack of security in hospitals? How many professions put people with no self-defence knowledge into these types of dangerous situations without training or security?
  2. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    That sucks but it's about people with paychiatric problems not people who practice martial arts.
  3. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I believe that martial arts instructors have a responsibility here

    We should do our best not to teach criminals or people with mental health issues
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Eh, what? We shouldn't teach people with mental health issues? Depression, Down syndrome are mental health issues. Should we not offer them a physical release of pressure?
  5. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Define ‘mental health issues‘

    Would you bar a woman suffering postnatal depression?

    How about a war veteran suffering ptsd?

    Or a teenager suffering from depression due to having no social outlets?

    “Mental health issues“ doesn‘t just mean pschopaths and sociapaths. At one point or another, most people will suffer from some sort of MH issue.
  6. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Why don't you throw jews and black people in there too?
  7. Rhythmkiller

    Rhythmkiller Animo Non Astutia

    I think you overstate the martial arts instructors role in society.

  8. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    There is an obvious issue regarding the safety of clinical psychologists and psychiatrists (and other health professionals) when dealing with psychiatric patients who suffer from serious mental conditions. I don't think that the issue gets confused one iota by considerations of whether the patient has any experience of martial arts.

    I mean, if you were dealing with a twenty stone paranoid schizophreniac who was inside for murder you wouldn't think "It's okay, I'm safe here, cos he's never done any martial arts."

    PS: this thread is FIRED!
  9. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member Just no.
  10. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    Oh yeah, definitely!

    Thank god nobody has taught me how to fight with my PTSD issues! It would suck having a panic attack and not being able to function, sitting down in a chair with my face in my hands shaking and just KNOWING that all my training in MA could make me slay everyone in the room, and then not being able to!

    I would be lucky to think that honestly. Mostly I just try not to swallow my own throat and not fall over from feeling so disoriented.

  11. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    Did you know that the majority of schizophrenics aren't violent at all? Most of what they deal with results in panic attacks, crippling fear, and an inability to function. Sure it might seem scary because they're all "crazy actin'" and stuff, but they're not likely to hurt anyone.

    The only significant percentage of violent schizophrenics fall in the category of young males who abuse drugs to self medicate. And to be honest that holds true for people without schizophrenia too doesn't it?

    Edit: To add to this, the PTSD clinic I go to had a guy attack one of the psychs. What for? After extensive review by experienced personnel, it was found that he did not have PTSD and would not be given the disability rating he wanted. He got mad and attacked the psychiatrist.

    It's you normal folk wanting to be messed up that we all have to worry about xD
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
  12. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I would have assumed that to be the case, but thanks for the explanation anyway.

    I was simply using the made-up example of a paranoid schizophreniac who had committed murder to illustrate my point about the relative irrelevance of the martial arts experience of dangerous psychiatric patients. I wasn't trying to make a point about schizophreniacs per se.
  13. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Yeah but then the Buj would lose half of its membership.

    Seriously though Dunc, usually you talk sense but this just looks like you are parroting the party line.
  14. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Isn't it true that someone with mental health issues is FAR more likely to be a victim of violence than someone without?
    Sure I read that one somewhere?
  15. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    Not saying you were!

    I have made a very close friend who has helped me with a lot of issues as of late who is a paranoid schizophrenic, so I thought I would throw it out there in case somebody read that post and decided to make the assumption that paranoid schizophrenic = super dangerous. Kinda' like how they do with vets and PTSD (which is why I posted info. about myself :p)
  16. bigreddog

    bigreddog Valued Member

    He did bjj so how did he cause facial injuries by pulling guard? :)

    On a serious note I would concur with the opinion that this is all about a person with an unbalanced state launching an assault and not about his martial arts skills, and I don't think a blanket response to 'don't teach those with mental health issues' is very useful....teaching staff and doctors might be
  17. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    What would you teach the medical staff though and to what level? In the UK mental health workers are usualy taught some basic controll and restraint techniques but very very basic stuff and not likely to work against a seasoned bjj fighter. Teaching Drs to deal with a seasoned martial artist is going to take a long time and a lot of money. Providing chaperones or security (either in the room or on standby) would probably be easier and slightly cheaper.

    I think there is still a slight responsibility for instructors to vet their students, if they seem dodgy or whatever then they should not be taught MA, mental health issues shouldn't come into it but general character should be considered. Don't ask me how to judge if some one is dodgy or how to politely tell them you won't teach them because they seem like a jerk.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2014
  18. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    It was for a different reason, but the same subject up in a German forum not long ago.
    Apparently one of the things here is, that the medical staff learns how to enter and position himself in the room, as in have the door close to you and don't let patients get in between you and the door.
    Maybe see cues that they're about to "snap".
    Don't go to patients alone, when it's known they might be aggressive and such.
    One very important thing seems to be, that once there is set of an alarm, that it takes like seconds until some other personnel gets to that room and help.
    It's rather basic as well.
    Same with basic control and restrain techniques.
    People don't need a MA education, if they want to hurt someone. Especially patients on psychiatric units seem to be able to get very strong during a phase. I read several times, from people that work there, that it's not rare, that they have to restrain patients with five or persons, because of the power they can get.
    (As said, essentially taken from another forum)

    I actually think, that lot of instructors actually do get rid of students, when they notice they're from the aggressive kind.
    Most of the times, I doubt that those people "work out" with the other students, so it might end up in: "Keep that aggressive *beep* or lose some of the other students".
    If they're only aggressive or something outside the dojo... Well, then there's the problem you mentioned about actually knowing about it.

    About the: Don't train people with mental health issues.
    I think that's too generalized as well.

    Under that premise it's likely, for example, that I wouldn't get trained.
    Which funny enough so far is the thing, that helped me best and the longest.
    It reduces my stress level, helps my self-confidence, brings me into a position to interact with people...

    In short: Not everyone with mental health issues is a crazy, aggressive person who can't control himself ;)
    (As was said before as well)
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2014
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Also worth mentioning that many mental health issues are not apparent or indeed may not manifest until later so even if filtering those with mental illness was a good idea - and it isn't - it isn't always practical or possible
  20. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Ive noticed that instructors place aggressive students with advanced guys until they soften up (in bjj classes)

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