Besides the information received from the Infamous Internet Trollbasher. I trained in a derivitive of Shotokan. Mr. Tarow Hayashi made the changes he found necesary in or around 1961. 1961 was the year that I was told from my brother-in-law, my instructor and student of Mr. Hayashi. The major changes he made as they were presented in our class were at Gokyu which was the first rank of the intermediate class. In the intermediate class all stances, blocks and strikes were modified. Our hands were up and our fighting stance and foot movement resembled a kickboxer and the left jab and right cross replaced the left front lunge and reverse right punch (from a conventional stance). We kneed, blocked, parryied, kicked, elbowed as well everything else from this stance or similar modified stances. Judo/Jujutsu was a separate class but in the full contact Kumiuchi class we trained Judo as well. Once in the intermediate class we were still required to attend at least once a week in the beginner class in order to train the whole system. At Rokukyu the students were required to attend the beginner class once a week and the intermediate class once a week. I'm not sure if that was my brother-in-laws addition or not. But this training evolved into Mr. Hayashis full contact fighting system which we called Kumiuchi which consisted of full contact fighting primarily a mix of Karate, Kickboxing and Judo. http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm To answer your question from experience I have issues with a lot of training methods but Shotokan has been raped and watered down quite a bit and we can even place some of the blame on Kenneth Funokoshi who more recently has said he is a distant nephew several times removed and as little as 15 years ago his yellow page ad read "Grandson to Gichin Funokoshi."
Basically it is as John says. Some stuff went offshore while other arts drifted into obscurity. The White Lotus style or Byakurenmonken in Japanese only exists as a class of techniques within Shorinji Kempo now. In the 1950’s Doshin So was invited back to China for the Chinese national competition. In one of his books he remarks that there appeared to be little left of kempo in China, it was all just callisthenics now. For anyone seeing the current Shaolin shows this has a very real ring to it. I don’t mean to trivialise their performances and feats, they are amazing guys and deserve credit for their abilities, I just don’t see how what they do is relative to martial arts.
Very true. Also amongst the large Chinese communities in Malaysia and Singapore , which is the route that our system (Shaolin Nam Pai Chuan) traces it's lineage back to it's origins in Buddhist temples in southern China. (Please excuse me butting into a Kempo thread, but the subject is of interest to me.) Respectfully,
So there is "legitimate" Shaolin martial arts outside of China but not in China. Which martial arts would be legitimate Shaolin lineage? And how much of these arts is truly Shaolin martial art?
Lineage is such a big issue with Chinese MA's. There are so many of them, and so many myths surround their history. When you look at Japanese MA's, everything seems so neat and clean by comparison! (Until you try to trace lineage back to China - and then it gets messy. ) I've seen numerous threads arguing about what went on at the Shaolin temple(s). Whatever anyone says, it always seems to stir up a hornets nest! My feeling about Shaolin and MA styles is this: - Many styles were practised at various times at the temples. Some originated there and spread to the outside, while others originated outside (e.g. 'family' styles) and were subsequently practised inside. All these styles probably influenced each other to some degree, so which are truly 'Shaolin' or not is a moot point. - Since Shaolin was such a prestiguous name in Chinese MA, I would imagine that quite a few styles which had no relation to the Shaolin temples themselves associated themselves with the Shaolin name to enhance their reputations. - The Shaolin temples (especially the southern one) became closely associated with Chinese nationalist resistance movements at various times - especially during the Qing Dynasty. As such, they became national symbols and were associated with secret societies and politics. This added to the sense of mystery and secrecy, and therefore legends and lies. Please excuse me if I've just made a long post stating the obvious.
Very well said. I agree with what you've written here from my reading on the subject. There was no one Shaolin style but many.
In the early stages of its development the kempo practiced at the Shaolin Temple had no set. It was sometimes refered to as Nalo-jan and at other times Arohan. In later years it was called I-jinsin to distinguish it from zazen. No doubt that in the years following various practitioners of other arts would have sought sanctuary or joined the Shaolin Temple, further exposing the Temple to other styles and methods. To make an accurate determination of what styles are related would be very difficult these days due to the lack of verifiable records. I guess all you can do is look at what evidence there is and make your own decision. My own opinion is that while Shorinji Kempo is not the kempo that Doshin So studied in China it is still a direct relation, while the philosophy we study is more directly related to Doshin So’s experience with his two Shaolin teachers and his life in China (Doshin So lived in China for much of his early life, from about 11 years old).
In his book, "Martial Musings" and others, Robert W. Smith tends to identify any non-internal style as Shaolin in origin. Some where Northern and Some Southern. The Three that were not Shaolin according to him were Hsing-I, Ba Gua and Tai Chi. There was one more, but it was due to it's being older than Shaolin in origin and it was a grappling art used by the Chinese Army called Shuai-Chiao. It's supposedly the oldest formal style of Kung Fu in China.
What about... Where does wing chun fall in that comendium. To my understanding (which is admiteddly limited) wing chun is both external and internal. Does it have origins one of the temples?
http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/styles/wingchun.htm Wing Chun was an obscure and little known art until the mid twentieth century. While multiple histories of the art do exist (some with only minor discrepancies), the generally accepted version is thus: The style traces its roots back over 250 years ago to the Southern Shaolin Temple. At that time, the temple a was sanctuary to the Chinese revolution that was trying to overthrow the ruling Manchu. A classical martial arts system was taught in the temple which took 15-20 years to produce an efficient fighter.......
It is difficult to say who has the 'right'. I think every style should show it's lineage, but beyond a certain point this always seems to be shrouded in myth and legend. But if a style calls itself 'Shaolin' without showing any lineage at all then I'd be inclined to view it with some suspicion, personally.
marketing Agreed. Most of the time it is a marketing ploy. The question is--why would the use of Shaolin make a martial art more desirable?
Quite simply because Shaolin was the most famous name in CMA's. It seems to have been rather like the 'university' of CMA!
I never thought that when I chose the "generic" name for my system "Kempo Ju Jitsu" I would have rattled so many feathers. I think a name change is coming. How about Shaolin Kempo Ju Jitsu?
I think that Shaolin’s name is desirable because of its reputation, not only is it popular because of cheesy seventies TV programs here, but in Asia because of its history and ideals. The Shaolin Temple has had a long history of campaigns against governments. The Imperial Chinese government never recognised political parties or legitimate agencies of popular protest. Secret societies where use as political tools to help effect change. Many of these societies were united in and based upon a religious sects, The Shaolin Temple being the most well known. The Boxer Rebelion of 1900 was an act of one of these. The Boxers came from an amalgamation of the Great Sword Society and the Red Spear Society, forming the The Fists of the Righteous Harmony. Further to them being a champion of sorts for the general populace there is also the respect gained for their ideals for training. They were not training just to be tough fighters, but as a way to reach enlightenment. The physically demanding training was seen as a Gyo (method of spiritual development), it was the counterbalance for Zazen (meditation). This is where the Shaolin Temple stood alone in China. There were martial arts there before, but the Shaolin Temple was the first place to use martial arts as a developmental tool for the human spirit. They sought not only to create strong fighters but also to create people that would act morally and value other human life.
