Proper gripping of sharp sword blade

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Langenschwert, Sep 5, 2007.

  1. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    In this video I drag my teacher around with my sharp Albion Earl while he grips the blade. We each weigh in at about 190-200 lbs, and Johanus was definitely pulling back. The hops he made were to prevent his feet from fetching up on the ground, since he didn't want to go for a tumble with sharp steel around. :) I used all my weight to pull him. His hands remained injury free. :)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddeL1aw1BkE"]Sword Tug of War - YouTube[/ame]

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  2. gungfujoe

    gungfujoe Please, call me Erik. :)

    Neither your post nor the video, though, say anything about the proper gripping of a sharp sword blade. They only say that your teacher is able to do it. :)

    So I guess the important question is "how?"

    (though perhaps "how practical is it?" is more important than "how is it done?" given that the demo only shows that it can be safely done with a sword being pulled in one direction with relatively constant force, which wouldn't be my reaction to someone grabbing a sword that I was holding)

    Regardless, it's a pretty cool demo, be it practical or parlor trick.
     
  3. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I think the point would be to grip the sword just long enough for you to counter his attack by grappling or striking with your own weapon. The japanese sword ,said to be the sharpest, can be gripped in this manner for an instant since it cuts on the push or pull.Last resort tactic.

    regards koyo
     
  4. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    koyo is as usual spot on :)

    You ask how, gungfujoje:
    Well, we don't know. There are two approaches:

    A: you grip so tightly that the blade doesn't slip, and blades that don't slide don't cut (very well).
    B: you grip it in a way that the hand doesn't contact the edge.

    Then you ask of practicality:
    Well, we don't know that either, as we don't fight for real. On training-sessions, it works extremely well. Fiore actually mentions this as a very efficiant way of dealing with german longsworders that wind up into a high-guard, and then get stuck in a bind. The crusial thing is to not grip a blade that is in motion. If the blade is still for a moment, because both direct the same amout of energy towards eachother, or because the hard-disk of your opponent have gone into a "pleace wait while loading"-mode, then you grab the blade, and do what koyo sais, frees up your own blade to thrust/slash.
    http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/Dl11.jpg

    Fiore allso shows numerous situations where you hold on your own daggerblade as a counter to an opponents attemt at an armlock (Fiore shows allmost all daggerwork with a rondelldagger, that usually isn't very sharp,though):
    http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g13r_2.jpg

    It is allso shown in halfswording, but then the hands are often protected. Theese dudes does it without gauntlets, though: http://www.thearma.org/pdf/dlr3.jpg
     
  5. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    Couple of weeks ago I showed my guys that I could grip a longsword blade with enough force (and adjustment while wearing leather gloves) that they couldnt yank the blade out of my grasp. I only had to hold the blade for 2 secs tops to get my attack in which is easy with a strong enough grip ... but even if the blade had cut me I would have removed my opponents leg.
    Sliced (and probably savable) fingers Vs no leg ... think I won that duel!

    ps ok, the sword was blunt but it didn't move an inch in my grip ... thus no 'draw' cut, so no 'injury'.
     
  6. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    Nice video, one question though. Would not an experienced swordsman immediatly thrust then pull again to change the momentum once his opponent grabed the sword? Would that not possibly defeat the ability to hold the sword the way your teacher is? I have little experience with European Sword but with jujitsu if your oppenent is resisting in one direction you shift directions to break his hold or balance then if needed you can go back to your original direction. Seems the same principal would apply here to defeat the grab of the blade, maybee add a twisting motion with the thrust before the retraction.
     
  7. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    mostly (in my experience) you are most vulnerable to having your blade grabbed after a cut is blocked. This means the blade is stopped dead and there are techniques that actually are intended to give you a stationary blade to grab. You can even just grab the blade and pull throwing the sword weilder off balance. Its rarely a thrust that gets caught.
     
  8. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    I suppose you could do that, but a better idea is to drop your sword entirely and wrestle the guy. Especially if he just has it one hand, since the balance point is near the grip. By the time the pommel hits the ground, you're in grappling range.

    That particular grip is highly unlikely to happen in real combat. It's just a demonstration that once you get ahold of a sharp blade, you can keep your hands safe from getting cut.

    We use the same general principle of using your opponent's force against him. In fact, if you see any German medieval Ringen (wrestling), you'd be amazed at the similarity to jiu-jutsu. I've also seen people recommend twisting your blade to free it from an opponent's grip.

    In any event, you're more likely to be grabbing your own blade for half-swording, but the principle remains the same. The point is, blades can be grabbed quite safely, and even a couple of hundred pounds of drag isn't going to result in your hands getting cut. :)

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  9. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I like the idea of letting go. If someone were to grab at your sword while in the scabbard simply strike him two or three times rapid. Often I see involved techniques to answer this scenario.The simpler the better.

    koyo
     
  10. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Why not drop the sword, & use ringen in conjunction with rondel? Run him through.
     
  11. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    If you manage to pull the ronell, of course. (some knights are shown with a knifescabbard attached horizontally to the belt in front, probably for beeing able to pull it quickly.

    On the other hand, when someone is grabbing your blade, the attacks comes 0.1 second later, so it's limited what you get time to do; that's the beauty of it.
     
  12. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    Thank you for the information. Do you have any video links? I would be very intersested in them.
     
  13. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Your wish is my command. I'll have your tea ready in the den. :)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuMYqfmACM"]Medieval Wrestling - YouTube[/ame]

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  14. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    And another Ringen link:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWOuK-Td8tI&mode=related&search="]YouTube[/ame]

    -Mark
     
  15. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

  16. gungfujoe

    gungfujoe Please, call me Erik. :)

    Not as demonstrated. The guy was using all of his might to hold on to the blade with both hands. There's no immediate follow-on attack, and I can't imagine that against a competent swordsman, letting go with one hand wouldn't mean fast, severe laceration to the fingers (by means of a quick jerk of the sword, not a steady pull that allows a tight grip to be effective against smooth metal). If you drop (or slam) the sword to the floor, you're on your way to a counter and he's got to let go of the sword to react to that counter.

    Granted, against an opponent wearing heavy gloves that allow him to grab the sword with one hand, it's a very different matter, but I'm just talking about the demonstration that this this thread was started for.
     
  17. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Erik

    I think the video was to show that it is possible to grasp a swordblade without being cut. Grasping the blade would be to pull the attacker off balance or redirect the blade to give access to the opponent's weak spots. Western swordsmanship is just as subtle as any asian school.This includes jujutsu like grappling and disarming.
    As for slamming the blade down, if it does not come out of his hands, I would expect an immediate follow through with the hilt or any number of continuous movements.

    regards koyo
     
  18. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    You're of course right, as usual :love: -to the letter as I'd say it myeslf.

    I don't think I know about a youthube-video that shows the swordgrab-technique from Fiore that I linked to above done in real-life, and a talk-through is difficult and boring to read. ...but I'll do it anyways :rolleyes:

    Say you and an opponent have ended up in a cross (crossada/bind), the opponents bladetip is not far away from your head, and the opponent is slow to come up with a response... In this situation, Fiore suggests you do the same move with your left hand as you do when you use the left hand to parry a daggerthrust towards your neck, grabs the opponents blade, and pulls it slightly towards your left. As your sword is freed from the bind, you imedeately slices over the underarm(s) of your opponent, then thrusts him in his chest, or somthing similar against any other convineant opening.

    My bet is that your opponent will be much more conserned with your attacking sword, than slicing your fingers, and the best counter for him, is probably as have suggested allready; to simply let go of ones sword and enter into wresteling with you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2007
  19. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    I have with a blunt sword, to see if it could be done, had a person larger and stronger than me, try to jerk it out of my hand while I held the blade with one hand. He couldn't do it. If your arm is slightly bent, you can absorb the shock of the tug and maintain control of the blade without letting it slide against your hand, which is what would cause a laceration. At any rate, that quick jerk is the last thing you want to do. A canny opponent will release as you jerk, causing the sword to go offline and open you up to grappling/dagger work. I believe Ringeck mentions something like that.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2007
  20. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    spot on mark.
    have even managed to grab opponents sword (a lazy thrust) when I had no weapon and then hung on while he tried to shake me off. During that time I was trying to rearrange the mesh on his 1600N fencing mask with my fist (in a controlled and honourable way you understand! :D )
     

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