Oops, better clarify that post. I wasn't suggesting that Shou Shu doesn't work. In fact I'm looking forward to someday getting the chance to take Shou Shu Blue up on the offer to visit a school. My only issues have been (and btw I have the same issue with TKD) quoting multi generation oral history as hard fact (leading to the one claim that Shou Shu can trace it's roots back to Egypt) and two the assumption that Shou Shu is unique in it's use of progressive striking (or that it does it better than all other arts). And I think we've already addressed all of those. 'Gain, from what I've read I dig some of the ideas of Shou Shu. Someday I look forward to crossing hands with a practitioner or two. - Matt
TigerGrishkin, I appreciate that you are engaging us in a civil manner, that's much more than I can say for a lot of the posters on this sight. While I disagree with you on Shou Shu being commercialized and could care less about the linguistic semantics of the name I do have to voice my accord with you in one particular area of our training program. I think you wrote about it under a different thread though. It's not soo much that I think we are too tech based (because that is the way we learn the principles and concepts) but that I think we do not put enough emphasis on sparring. Unfortunately at my rank there are a lot of young students so it wouldn't even be legal for me to engage them physically. But I would like to address what you call commercialized and what I view as being a legitimate business. You said yourself that our students display proficiency in fighting right around the blue belt rank (which is by no means easy to attain). If it were in fact commercialized then it would be more focused on pumping out belts than it would creating competent fighters. Because it is a respectable business it uses contracts. And as brown flow mentioned the seminars and camps are not open to the public. If anything these add to the legitimacy of it because in the camps each day is nothing but practicing techs learning principles (from what I hear, I have yet to be able to make it out to one of these camps). Anyway, welcome to MAP and thanks for the good convo. Hope none of my Shou Shu bros think I'm turning my back on the art. I'm just saying I could stand to see a little more sparring so that we can hone our skills. L8, 8
Sheesh, you guys are tense. I was defending you! People are questioning whether or not Shou Shu is really a legit CMA, and I am arguing that YES it is. But I am also trying to offer a few accurate criticisms based on my observations in order to show that I am not a Shou Shu partisan, but an independent observer. Is EightFold the only of who who reads? You should read what I said on the thread "Shou Shu" and take a closer look at my comments here. Relax a bit guys. I'm not flaming you. Shou Shu is very concerned about practicality and lethality. Your guys can get a little nuts sometimes, and I've heard some really stupid stories, but all in all, Shou Shu schools will teach you how to fight. Basically, most of everything I've seen in Shou Shu WORKS! I am friends with quite a few practitioners, including a few black belts. As to the commercialization, I never said it was bad or unscrupulous, but it's certainly not an uncommercialized school There's nothing wrong with running a business. I never said there was. The reason I say technique obsessed is that sometimes one can hear a lot of LOW-LEVEL Shou Shu practitioners saying that learning the Mass Attacks or the Sixth or one of the multi-opponent techniques is going to instantly convert to being able to use them on multiples. Techniques are not a panacea for fighting. Katas, sets, forms, whatever are living demonstrations of principles. You learn them to internalize the principles and perfect their expression in your body. You make them automatic through progressive sparring and living practice.
It's the progressive sparring I would like to see more of. As far as Low-level practitioners making such claims, I haven't seen or heard any. Do you mean in general or specifically on this message board? Correct me if I'm wrong. But I do have to agree it is ridiculous if someone claims the effects of something they haven't learned (ie the mass attack example). Hope I don't catch hell for this. L8, 8
I find myself in another world while sparring i tend to get over excited and go to far. but thats just me.
Low level practionters usually take what they hear and times it by 10 by the time they reiterate it to someone else. I know that by the time i got my blue belt i was reaction training with 4 other students. 4 on 1. it is possible to train for more than one attacker.
Progressive weapons build power by using the strike into a strike principal. Also by using the double focus principle. For example; My attacker throws a deep straight right, I parry w/ left hand while punching his ribs w/ a sidefist from the right hand, I use the opponent's body to push off of and put that energy into my next strike, which would be a circular heel palm to the jaw with the left hand. Also, the attacker's head would be moving in as a reaction to the broken ribs, thus the heel palm to jaw would hit twice as hard. This is the double focus principal. This example is from a brown belt cobra technique that has two more strikes after that, and they build in power all due to these two principles. That should clear up the whole concept for everyone. Everytime I learn a new principle in Shou Shu, it's so common sense I think,"why didn't I think of that?" As for the history, all martial arts started in Egypt in a way. Egypt is was the cradle of civilization, the first major military empire. It's where the art of war originated. It is the true root of combat arts. Martial arts spread from there, in every direction, hence not only asian arts, but Greco-Roman wrestling, Roman swordfighting, the sufis of the middle east. Each culture that the martial arts spread thru put their own flavor on it to suit their own unique needs. All the way to Mongolian wrestlers and Filipino knife fighters and beyond. When you think about it from a historical aspect, it makes good sense. About the sparring 8, when I joined we sparred alot. I had to spar a black prep when I was an orange belt. Since then people have been hurt sparring, got all butthurt and tried to sue. That's why we don't do it much lately. But If you find a willing partner and have a shifu supervize, you can spar.
we'll have to spar around in the school very soon eightfold, i've been having the itch to do the same, it shouldn't be a problem if we do it like after 8:30pm when most are gone.
Sounds like a plan! What are the ground rules for the sparring? There must be some precautions...I mean it can't be a no holds barred MMA thing can it?
nah, tattooed bear has some good sparring gloves he may let us wear.. we'll start off with no kicks.. its very light, you want to get wild.. then we all head to the park on sundays.. thats the shiznit.. we get down and a little dirty... with cautions.. we spar but keep the respect in mind that we are brothers...
Well of course, I was partially exaggerating, Someone would indefinately get hurt if we went to the max. That's why I was asking about rules. So no kicks for starters? Sounds good. What about locks, pressure points, and grappling in general? I know we don't really cover that but it does come up in a clinch in real fighting situations. Not in multiple opponent situations, but one on one it is a big factor....
with 2 experienced shou shuist, it will be progressive strikes.. no time for locks but maybe some pressure points
Great, thanks for the opportunity, I really appreciate the chance to improve my skill. It's about time for my break so I'll be back in a little while or I'll see you in the studio and we can iron out the details as to when and who else may want to participate.
we'll figure out a good time to mess around in the school, when the weather permits.. we'll assemble our small army to take over McKinley Park... thats our training grounds.
honorable combat when i was coming up through the ranks we did alot of honorable combat. students started getting hurt alot. i personally watched many students quit the school because of injury, and who wouldn't? well i never did, i was always hard core anyway. i got my butt kicked in that school over the years and just decided that nothing was going to run me out. it is a buisness. students don't pay good money to get pulverized! i would like to see more honorable combat in the school. i like the idea of having honorable combat for the upper ranks only after maybe 8:30. i would say solid blue belt and higher. with shifu supervision of course. it's not a free for all death match either, very tightly controlled so no one gets seriously hurt. but i say let the brown belts beat eachother good. the only differance between the old school and now is it's no longer a friggen slaughter house anymore. salute
Hey Shifu, keepin it real... I like that! I agree with the after 8:30, but some of our lower ranks in the school can take a lickin... eightfold for sure fits in this scene as well as maverick and harms... i'd like to get the big guy in there too.. you know him... his name is rozowski... thats a big boy.. i want to disect his movements... I can see the old me in him.. but now im lightning fast... hee hee hee NOT!
Part of me wishes it was still a slaughterhouse. A lot of people see me with a calm exterior for the most part, but inside I'm a "weed out the weak" kind of person. I've always had that mentality from jackin around with cousins, to helping lead my wrestling team, or just my general attitude towards life. I don't like being surrounded by weak people and I don't want to get infected by their lack of fighting spirit. I'm completely irrational, I understand it is a business and some people don't go for that sort of thing. But I am also pragmatic and I know that if you don't train to hurt anyone then in real life you WON'T HURT ANYONE. Just a rant. But I am excited about getting this organized sparring thing off the ground. Salute, 8
When we spar, or more correctly, participate in honorable combat, we don't really pussyfoot around. True, it's not the time to develope power and hit full strength, but the one golden rule is: No pitter-patter! And don't stop just because you landed a strike, or took one to the dome. There's no stopping on the street, and that's what we train for. But unlike on the street, if your opponent asks you to stop, you must. Honorable combat is where you learn distance and timing and reaction, speed and power are not as important at first, since speed is just a volume control that can be turned up anytime. Distance and timing are much more important, once you get that down, you can turn the speed up. Remember, fast garbage is still garbage. I haven't sparred in a long time, I need to get back in the groove. Shifu Tan and I used to spar alot as we came up thru the ranks, but then something happened around brown belt level; we were just knockin' the snot out of each other, even at half speed! We're going to need some head gear or something. One time we ended up on the ground, which will happen, and that doesn't mean you stop. Anyway, we've been on the ground alot, but this one time I thought I really had him, I was on top raining down punches, and he hit me in the ear as he rolled out. He hit me so hard I couldn't sleep on my right side for about 3 weeks. We had to slow it down a little after that, you need control, but too much controll will make you pull your strikes, so better to err on the side of not enough control. Anyway, I don't care if I have to get bloodied up a little to become better at Shou Shu, but most students don't see it that way anymore. That's why we don't do it in group class anymore.
I am so down for this type of sparring. Not no holds barred...becaused...that doesn't make sense...but, honorable...Hurt each other, bloody each other, but don't kill each other. I'm down with that. I'm down to spar! Let the training commence! Can I play?
