Progressive Strikes

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Shou Tu, Jan 9, 2004.

  1. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    I know of Three Styles that use progressive striking. I have watched clips of other styles and havent seen it. If there are other styles that use this type of striking what are they?

  2. Guerilla Fists

    Guerilla Fists New Member

    What do you mean by progressive strikes? And what styles do you know of that use them?
  3. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    Shou Shu, Sheng Hun, Kenpo use progressive Striking.

    Each strike builds off the last, your speed and power increase with each strike.
  4. dashao

    dashao New Member

    is it different to chain punching?
  5. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    I think most MA usethis at asome time or another.But maybe don't put as much emphsis on it.

    eg: boxing

    Jab, harder Jab, then devestaing hook.

    If i understand what you mean.
  6. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    That is similiar but with boxing its usually left jab, left jab, right hook.

    it is similiar. Ever see the little action figures with the spring in the hips turn them one way and let go they snap back from. apply that to your strikes. first strike is solid strike, the next is "springloaded" with more power than the first.

    includes kicks as well, strikes are all that do with hands and feet.
  7. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    Mantis has multiple impact applications from single attacks.

    All with the same hand: side chop to throat, grab the throat in a claw and yank back towards you and then palm forwards. All very quickly so the three take little more than the time of one.

    There are other inperpretations/techniques. That's an example of taking the initiative froma n apparently simple attack.

    With two arms in play, greater force can be applied e.g. one hand hits, then both hands grab and yank towards you, then one hand returns for another strike while the opponent is still in the process of being yanked forward.

    On a more generic level, there's a common occurence of 1,2 3 as one, two, THREE like ba-bang BANG.

  8. Indestructible

    Indestructible New Member

    I believe you have just described that sweet thing we call double focus!
  9. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    Mantis is one of our animals. So Progessive stikes occur in 4 styles but actually three. since Mantis is taught in our style too.
    David you have now placed more styles in our circle than they thought .

  10. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Any "good" forms that I have seen all have progressive striking combinations in them. And from my experience most martial arts have progressive striking. But it isn't often talked about. That can occur because it was considered a "hidden" aspect of the art and not communicated/taught until high levels (if at all). Or that is was so integrated into the forms that it was taken for granted.

    - Matt
  11. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    So what your saying is that other arts have progressive striking but it isnt taught until higher levels in turn the student would have to relearn what they were taught at lower levels to integrate the progressive aspect.

    Also that it was so integrated that it wasnt thought as something different.

    Now progressive striking is meant to continually barrage your opponent with strikes. Not including blocks or parries. In a few seconds if not 10ths of seconds you could hit your opponent more than 3 strikes using the progressive stikes method. Not while moving away from but while driving into and manipulating your opponent in any direction you wish.

    If im off track with my view that your saying please eloborate and expand.

    Again this is not to bash i just havent seen it in other styles, just MHO.

  12. jimmytofu

    jimmytofu A majority of one

    Certainly sounds interesting. Just curious..

    Is there any scope to deviate - say if your opponent manages to block / moves?
  13. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    So whats the point of progressive striking???? Would it not make more sense to hit hard all the time.

    What happens in a real fight, do you still lead with a weak punch, IMO Leading with a weaker punch is asking for someone to come straight though your weak strikes and smack you as hard as possible.
  14. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Again, go back and watch forms. In the base Shaolin arts there are numerous occurances in the forms where one hit sets up the next, sets up the next. Especially the ones derived from Long Fist (like Crane). And the progression usually begins with "tighter hits" which in turn manipulate the attacker, opening and clearing room, for the BIG long fist stepping through reverse punch.

    If you take these techniques out of the Long Fist arena and start to tighten them up the hits becomes more rapid but the spirit of progressive hitting remains. Thus you end up with systems like Wing Chun (which in some respects is a vastly shortened Crane system). Wing Chun's hitting/trap system is completely progressively based. The only difference is that there are hand clears in it. But lots of systems integrate traps and clears into progressive hitting. Mantis was already cited as a prime example.

    At the end of the day, if I understand your definition correctly, there are two aspects to progressive hitting:
    1. Each hit sets up the next hit by manipulating the attacker's
    body through striking.
    2. Each hit progressive builds to a higher power level.

    Again, I believe this is in most Martial Arts systems. Whether it's talked about or not is an entirely different thing. But the same is true for a wealth of other "lost" concepts.

    - Matt
  15. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Id agree with what Matt said I dont think there are that many styles that operate on an attack, reset, attack, reset, attack basis. Its a pretty common ideal for most martial arts for their strikes to be done in such a way that your in a good position to follow on with more strikes or something else like a lock or so on.

    From my own experience (like Matt already mentioned) Wing Chun heavily emphasises continuous/progressive/flowing (or whatever you want to name it) strikes. I think perhaps circular type flowing movements are emphasised more in most Chinese martial arts than say Japanese but I think regardless progressive striking is still an intrinisc part of most styles.
    Id have to disagree JD, in my experience its a lot harder to deal with someone who is continuously striking than someone throwing single hard hits. For a start if the person is fast/good it is remarkably difficult to tell which hits are the light ones and which ones will completely knock the sense out of you. Secondly a person whos throwing continous strikes for the reason I just explained tends to create openings that otherwise wouldnt be there, as the person is constantly being forced to move their guard and attention. And thirdly its often the connection rather than the force that is most important in how painful a strike is, just off the top of my head I recently hit someone with an elbow while falling backwards- so there wasnt a great amount of force but because it connected right between the eye and nose it was the most painful hit (and I might add accidental) that occured that evening.
  16. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    That makes me understand what your saying alot better for the sake of explaning what you meant.

    For what i have been taught the first strike is intended to have as much power as the last it just that usually the power builds over the course of striking.

    Usually when a stike gets blocked it just sends the striker into a different course of progressive striking. possibly resetting and looking for another opening that now the opponent is wary of commenting any opening.

    Proggresive striking never said it lead with weak strikes. Just said that the strikes build power and speed as they progress. Believe me i have been hit sparring by a Green belt, brown belt, black belt that the freaking first hit knocked me on my butt. when i did manage to stay up the second usually sent me realling.

    I know if its not taught or the concept isnt shown to a student although its there it can be confusing. But progressive striking can open you a new view on your art and if you watch how the strikes work together in a form, it helps you better understand WHERE the power for your stikes is derived. Allows you to refine your teachings and bring new breath to old material. Plus if you know how you can derive power you can make yourself more aware of your body in a fight.

  17. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Ooops didn't mean to suggest that the first hit is a weak one. It's just not your maximum power stroke. As you state the progressive attack should "naturally" build on the power of each previous technique. Sorta the idea of setting up a finishing move.

    Agree 100%. I don't want to spin wheels as to why people may not talk about it. Like I said it could be something so fundimental that most people don't think to talk about (or even realize that they are doing it). Or it's a concept that was held for upper level students. Sadly, this is a pretty common occurrance in the Martial Arts. For example, I can count on one hand the number of Karate instructors who I've met who can truely and deeply disect Kata's (not suprisingly these instructors also use progressive hitting). That wasn't to single out Karate, but rather to just state that there's lots of things going on in forms and technique that people either don't understand, are not talking about, or simply don't realize that they are doing.

    Which is why all of us tat are spoiled and get that type of knowledge need to continually thank our instructors and try to help diseminate the info where we can.

    - Matt
  18. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    CKava already touched on this, but I wanted to supliment his great post. Don't assume that the first punch is weak punch. That isn't the case. But there are strategic reasons to hold all out power techniques until later in a progression. The key thing in a fight is to throw "punches in bunches" (acutally techniques in bunches, but for the ease of argument let's restrict it to punching right now).

    Take boxing: many combinations start with a jab. The jab is a feeler, designed to draw the guard. It typically isn't the most powerful tool a boxer has. But it still hits hard and can open the opponent up for a cross. The cross is a much heavier and typically more powerful technique. But it's also slower. Very few boxers can land a cross, cold, on a fresh (and trained) opponent.

    So a relatively "weaker" hit is used to open the door for a stronger hit. And remember that a good fake should hit the person if they don't block it.

    - Matt
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2004
  19. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    Agree with the feeler strike but also if your first strike is in Defense its going to have power behind it.
  20. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    I am not sure I agree with the statement that a jab is a feeler. IMHO the jab should be strong enough to do damage to an opponent. A good jab to the throat will tend to back up most people.

    What I feel is when you off load your combos you should strike to do as much damage as possible with every strike, not build up power as you go. As you will know in a real fight there are to many variables as range is shifting and targets are moving. Because of this you dont really have the opportunity to think about progessively increasing the power of your shots as a combo progresses. Thats why I feel you should strike with as much force as possible with every strike that is intended to land on the target.

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