Pro Bare Knuckle Boxing

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by David Harrison, Mar 1, 2019.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    To me that's just damage you don't see, but I still feel it and wince. If you could see what is happening inside a hyperextended joint I don't think you'd call it non-violent.

    The option to throw the towel in is still there, which is equivalent to tapping, in my uninformed opinion. I find kicks more violent than punches too - KO by head kick makes me wince a lot more than breaking the skin, or even factoring an orbital, from a bare knuckle punch.

    ...I think it is lasting damage that turns my stomach the most. Cuts heal, but repeated hyperextension and brain trauma doesn't.
     
  2. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    If you can bear the horror have a look at Kron Gracie's last fight against Caceras or Maia v Lyman Good. I'd be willing to bet you've had more damaging Marbo lessons!
     
  3. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Watched the Kron Gracie vs Caceras fight. Would you call that an outlier?

    I also noticed a fair bit of blood splattered on the mat, presumably from previous fights that night. :)
     
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Are you trying to tell a woman what she can and can't do for a job? Sexist bro.
     
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    They should at least have ring boys in budgie smugglers to even it out.
     
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I would call it just as valid a part of the MMA spectrum as the blood and concussions. Which is my point really.
    It's certainly not unheard of for MMA matches to be quick, mostly grappling, affairs where neither party actually gets hurt that much or damaged. Can't see many BKB bouts going by without some degree of damage to someone in the same way.
    Essentially I think I'm saying that trying to work out if MMA is more violent or damaging than BKB is splitting hairs.
    They are both very violent really.
    And quite honestly my views on combat sports are changing all the time. I can't help but admire the artistry, skill, determination, grit and will it takes to succeed. While also feeling uneasy about watching it.
    There's a part of me that thinks we as a species should aspire to more than watching other people beat each other up for entertainment.
    And another part that is astounded and fascinated by Nicolino Locche's head movement or Julian Jackson's power.
    I suppose that's part of the attraction and frisson of combat sports?
     
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  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I have to say that I've never before heard combat sport fans talk about frisson of any kind before.

    I admire all those things too, it's the voyeuristic element that makes me uneasy, the promotion and vibe of the whole thing (ring girls being a part of that culture... the whole blood and boners bro thing). It's just not what I think of as being part of a civilised society (not saying that's what we are living in, but it's what I would like to live in).

    I certainly wouldn't be very happy if my son decided to become a professional fighter. The injuries are bad enough, but financially it is exploitative too. I just don't like the idea of people getting damaged to satisfy strangers' blood lust and lining sleazy promoters' pockets. It's not just combat sports, either; people living vicariously through the success of others is a really strange phenomenon to me. I just don't get being a sports fan.
     
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I concur. I have literally no interest in that side of it and watch MMA (when I get the chance) to see the skilled application of technique for the most part.

    Well yeah...your average UFC fan spitting out doritos and beer in the bleachers and booing when it goes to grappling wouldn't be able to articulate that sort of thing but there's definitely a human fascination with combat sports that goes back millennia and isn't about to go away.
    Writers such as Norman Mailer and others have attempted to address our relationship with combat sports and the darker corners of our nature.

    I think you're not taking into account the self determination of the fighters involved. None* are forced to do it (they may be forced in later life through not having anything else they can make money doing but that's a bit different). Some of them LOVE it. They love the lifestyle, not doing a 9-5 "normal" job, the kudos, the identity of being "a fighter". Some would be pretty much useless at doing anything else. There are many fighters that fully understand your misgivings and still choose to do it anyway (or think they will be the small percentage that can work the system to their advantage).

    *Some people may have been forced to do it by their family of course. Sage Northcutt and Khabib for example.
     
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yeah, it is different when people who actually train watch combat sports.

    As for the rest of it, yeah, I think we've run out of disagreement. ;)

    ...and I fully acknowledge that many other careers involve being exploited by sleazy middlemen/promoters/managers, but not many have a good chance of living with chronic injury later in life.

    I also acknowledge that it is a bit weird that I would have no problem with fighters doing it in private, but as soon as an audience pays to see it I find it distasteful. :D
     
  10. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Which doctors said gloves increased the risk of brain damage? What opinion are you referring to?

    Gloves were introduced to protect the fighters hands. not their heads. Fist fighting without fist protection is a bad idea.
     
  11. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    The other part of it is that they're doing a lot of the things regular practitioners of martial arts are doing, but at a much higher level. Nobody has a problem being an amateur golfer and appreciating what the professionals do and copying them.
     
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  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/02688699308995087?journalCode=ibjn20

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...D0A4F7A?doi=10.1.1.110.6345&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...-win-and-other-sporting-questions-767122.html

    I've read more, but I don't have much time to go digging for references right now, sorry.

    It is because gloves protect the hand that they allow people to punch harder, resulting in more damage to the brain.
     
  13. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I thought the above would be common sense and not needed to be evidenced?

    The same thing happened in MMA when gloves were introduced the instances of knockouts went up because now the hands were protected enough to hit full force without fear of breaking.
     
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  14. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Gloves might have been introduced to protect hands but the unintended consequence of protecting the hands is that you can hit harder.

    MMA gloves were introduced to make it less barbaric and stop so many cuts etc, what happened was more knockouts though
     
  15. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Awesome links, thanks. Yes, all these studies about sum up my personal knowledge on the subject. Gloves protect the hands (common sense), not the head. That said, wearing gloves lets you fight longer and potentially get more brain damage, if not powdered phalanges. Do I have it right yet? :D
     
  16. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    How are MMA gloves less barbaric than boxing gloves? That doesn't make sense to me. With respect to bare knuckle boxing, with no protection whatsoever, the risks seem to be maximized.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  17. icefield

    icefield Valued Member


    I never mention d boxing gloves?

    Early ufc was bare Knuckle you rarely saw knockouts but lots of blood from cuts so to make it less barbaric and to pass the athletic commission and be accepted as a sport they introduced gloves.

    And what happened was people started to punch the head harder because their hands were protected and more knockouts happened
     
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  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You forgot to include the link to studies about powdered phalanges. ;)
     
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    You also saw lots of people pulling out of their next fight in tournaments because of broken knuckles and hands sustained in the previous one (Keith Hackney for example).
     
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Fighting is never going to be good for your health, but given the choice of increased damage to the hands or increased damage to the brain, I know which I'd choose.
     

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