principles of your arts

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by animalguy, May 9, 2004.

  1. animalguy

    animalguy Valued Member

    i would like to know some of the different principles of the arts out there. what things do you practice all the time which are backed up with the techniques, katas, striking, kicking, etc, of your art or cross trained arts?

    for instance i have heard that center lines are very important in wing chun can someone explain how they use the center line to achieve their goals?

    i am interested in any and all principles.
     
  2. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    outside of Shou Shu right??

    i have heard that Wing chun's idea is to attack center line on centerline, they try to own the center with their center. but if the center they try to own becomes unownable it throws them into damn what now trend.

    just what i heard can anyone state the differeance

    Salute,
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2004
  3. El Tejon

    El Tejon MAP'scrazyuncle

    In a cursory summary, wck's centerline theory is based upon the notion that one is strongest through his center, if you protect the center one is less likely to get hit and it is quicker to attack through the center (economy of motion). You'll get dozens of wck replies.

    Here's a link thingy that gives a summary of mantis boxing principles: www.mantiskungfu.com/CharacterPriciples.htm
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2004
  4. animalguy

    animalguy Valued Member

    yes from outside of shou shu.

    i want to see how many of the principles from outside shou shu relate to shou shu.

    thanks for the wc reply. we use the center line in similar ways.

    how about kenpo, san soo, san shou, whatever the art even guys from oregon (no disrespect meant to any one from oregon), i want to hear about some principles and theories of your arts.

    moderators: please pm me if i should have posted this thread elsewhere i don't want to step on any toes.
     
  5. keef

    keef Valued Member

    Well the principles/theory of the art I study "Seven Star praying mantis" includes the 12 Keyword formula which is theory as follows:

    1) to Hook - The action of hooking
    2) Grapple - To hold onto/control the opponent
    3) Pluck - The plucking movement, a quick jerking movement often bringing the opponent of balance.
    4) To hang in mid-air
    5) Intercept Hand - Intercept the attack then immediatly follow it up, usually a hook but I would think any intercept could be used as it is a theory, ie. hooking forearm block then immediatley followed by changing into a palm strike to the face.
    6) Chop - To come from above and and strike down.
    7) Contact - To get contact, i.e. set up a fake stike to the face, they block, contact is made, from this trapping etc can be applied.
    8) Cling - Once contact has been made, keep the contact like sticky paint.
    9) Tag - To get in close to the opponent, done using foot work.
    10) Lean - Using body mechanics with a leaning motion for a take-down
    11) Dodge - To dodge as the name implies
    12) Bounce - movements to gain distance

    This is further expained into more keywords but for now 12 will do as these are the traditional core. The keywords are not techniques but theory.

    Other theory includes "strike high then low, to the left, then the right" & "fein high, attack low; fein low, attack high" etc

    There is also other thoery such as the "three speeds". the "attainments" etc if you would like to know more I can go into further details.

    Hope this has given you an insight that you wanted.
     
  6. slc

    slc Banned Banned

    We practice quite a few different principles.

    Bow action of the hip, an advantage that can be used by alignment of the body to hold great force with little effort, to generate power and spring.

    Non-intention, the use of gravity to allow instant start speed with no muscle contraction. Obviously, this also results in non-telegraphing.

    Centre line, as in Wing Chun.

    Grounding.

    Mother line, the line which runs through the centre of your body from top to bottom, the core of your body. This is used to generate power etc. by moving through the motherline.

    Synchronicity, complete syncronisation and timing of movement with structured alignment throughout, allowing for completely dynamic/fluid structural alignments i.e. not just holding force in a given stance.

    Falling step, for generating power etc.

    Sliding and other types of leverage, for example a structured punch (tool) which will cut or wedge through obstructions.

    Various short arcs in body.

    That's very basic, and this is all physical, but the principles can be combined, for example there are many details to do with the movement of the hip and how weight is transfered through movement etc etc etc.
     
  7. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    Centreline theory as far as I understand it, is that you attack the centreline because that is where the majority of good striking areas are, (Centreline = motherline in this case i think,) examples being head, throat, genitals, solar plexus, etc. It can be harder for the opponent to move away from being hit if they have no real skill.
    Conversely, this is why you also protect your own centreline, because we don't want these areas to be hit.
    So the optimum position is where you are facing your opponent, ie your centreline is facing him/her (you can attack with both hands), and his/hers isn't facing you, (he can only really attack you with one arm.)
    You also try to attack through your centreline if its possible. (economy of motion) However, there is a lot more to that, common sense is also needed...
     
  8. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Hi Simon

    Could you give a more detailed description of the "bow action" you talk about here?

    Thanks,

    Mike
     
  9. slc

    slc Banned Banned

    Hi Mike

    This uses the hip structure from Wing Chun. It is a very useful principle and can be used in some great applications. You can get the basic idea by trying this, you'll need someone to help you.

    Stand up with your arms out in front of you. Your palms should be facing the floor. Ask your partner to press straight down to the floor, pushing your wrists. This time, be careful that you are not engaging any body structure (I looked at your profile and I guess that you will already have some hip structure from your Karate), make sure your hip does not engage.

    You will feel that your shoulders tense up a lot to hold the pressure and it's difficult to hold.

    So, do it again. This time tilt your pelvis up, your lower back will straighten out. Your hip will load and take the pressure, your hip is acting like a bow. This can be acheived from many positions, and is particularly good for maintaining the pressure...there are many applications.

    Play with this and you'll see how it can be used.

    You can apply these principles to your Karate, the style is not very important.

    Simon
     
  10. jimmytofu

    jimmytofu A majority of one

    There are 3 centrelines used in WC:

    Pivot line -
    Runs from the top of the head down through the torso and is grounded between the legs.

    Central heart line -
    Runs vertically down the body from the head to the groin and is essentially one inch either side of the centre. This is the striking line as a hit to this area is difficult to dissipate.

    Meridian line -
    The line between you and you opponent and the most direct line of attack.
     
  11. Jik Cheung

    Jik Cheung New Member

    i study central line wing chun.

    the basic principle is to always move to your third line. you have a home line, a center line, and the third line. the third line puts you in the advantageous position, while your adversary is still looking toward where you used to be. we do what's called "closing the circle". which is to always be lined up with your opponent outside his lead hand, so he has to constantly adjust.
     
  12. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Hi Simon

    Thanks for that. It turns out I was familiar with the concept but not the name. Interestingly (to me anyway) the one karate kata that most exemplifies this principle (in my opinion) is Sanchin, in which the stance used does have some superficial appearance to the basic Wing Chun stance. Whilst I have had some karate teachers stress the importance of this pelvic tilt to me there was never a concise explanation as to why. I only discovered the reasons myself after some experimentation and some experience of Tai Chi.

    Cheers,

    Mike
     
  13. Law Hon Gung

    Law Hon Gung New Member

    Salute! from oregon some of the fighting principles of sheng hun starting with form or posturing(the use of upper and lower gate)force(timing the posture) application(depends on the animal) philosophy. bear(xiong) iron sand palm,xiong chuan floating foot,centerline shift of mass at 3/4 extendtion,distance line. mantis(tong long) jade ring,chin na,dragging hands,secret door,eight step,sticky hands,branching,3/4 stick,bueng bu,fun shu,jang shu,seizing and reeling. crane(bai he) blade wing,sheilding wing,hard and soft spotless,one,two point rooted,lofting,blade plains,bai he sei,han shu. cobra(she) snake ball,pagoda,hoods,fangs,simple traps,three circles.tiger(fu or hu) fu jow,fu chuan,bo sau,iron sand palm,lower gate fu jow chuan. dragon(lung) water dragon,pan choy,tung toy,goat trapping,dragon push hands circle.
     
  14. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    It's interesting that you bring that up Mike. I was once taught Sanchin and was immediately stuck by it's resemblence to both Wing Chun and Tai Chi in many of it's movements. Researching that Kata and it's origin and evolution has been on my Martial Arts to do list for quite a while.

    As far as the Principles of my art, I tend to arrange them in the Forrest Morgan method of Doctrine, Strategy and Tactics. The overall doctrine of the art is to resolve conflict through adaptation and flow (hence the Chinese translation of Wan Yi Chaun: Myriad Changing Fist or Everchanging Fist). Our strategy for doing this is to shut down an opponents fight across all of the fighting ranges, adapting and countering his/her intent and through that their techniques. Our tactics include training both in centerline and four corner theory and using techniques drawn from traditional Animal Systems, Internal Martial Arts, Filipino Martial Arts and Modern Fighting systems. The emphasis is that a stundent begins studying modern fighting techniques and slowly bridges into the classical techniques.

    - Matt
     
  15. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I hadn't noticed a Tai Chi similarity myself. Is there a particular Tai Chi move you had in mind?

    Mike
     
  16. animalguy

    animalguy Valued Member

    we use a simlar movement with our tiger material. if you punch to your soloplexus at the instant you tilt your pelvis up and puch your shoulders down like compressing your upper body, you will find a pretty good punch that requires little strength on your part.hun gar tiger is similar to this also.

    as far as tai chi goes the excersize simon was describing sounds like "white crane spreads its wings" a little bit, except that your hands are in different places.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2004
  17. Indestructible

    Indestructible New Member

    I got a taste of the snake ball in an animal chuan seminar. I believe we did jade ring footwork in the mantis chuan as well. Those chuan's were awsome examples of individual animal principals.
     
  18. shoushuer

    shoushuer Banned Banned

    Salute! from oregon some of the fighting principles of sheng hun starting with form or posturing(the use of upper and lower gate)force(timing the posture) application(depends on the animal) philosophy. bear(xiong) iron sand palm,xiong chuan floating foot,centerline shift of mass at 3/4 extendtion,distance line. mantis(tong long) jade ring,chin na,dragging hands,secret door,eight step,sticky hands,branching,3/4 stick,bueng bu,fun shu,jang shu,seizing and reeling. crane(bai he) blade wing,sheilding wing,hard and soft spotless,one,two point rooted,lofting,blade plains,bai he sei,han shu. cobra(she) snake ball,pagoda,hoods,fangs,simple traps,three circles.tiger(fu or hu) fu jow,fu chuan,bo sau,iron sand palm,lower gate fu jow chuan. dragon(lung) water dragon,pan choy,tung toy,goat trapping,dragon push hands circle.

    thats a lot of stuff, ive only heard about a few of those. care to talk about some of those in detail, like, secret door, whats that or what do you mean by "gate", i keep hearing that, but i never heard it in class.
     
  19. Greyghost

    Greyghost Alllll rrigghty then!

    good lord!!!...with all those principles , do you find any time left to practise Martial Arts????

    :p
     
  20. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    How long have you studied Sheng Hun??


    Salute,
     

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