Pride GP (SPOILER)

Discussion in 'Fight Discussions' started by neryo_tkd, Apr 14, 2006.

  1. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    [EXPAND="Spoiler"]I thought Nog won against Barnett, but it was close enough that I wasn't too terribly surprised to see it go the other way...[/EXPAND]
     
  2. neryo_tkd

    neryo_tkd Valued Member

    Sever, and not a single word about the pride girls? tsk tsk tsk :confused:


    [EXPAND="GP"]guys, have you see cro cop crying when he received the belt? it must have been a very sensitive moment for him. i don't know if you got the entire translation, but when he spoke croatian, he said that it was the happiest day of his life, but he regrets only for one fact, that his father is not alive, he died 12 years ago, so he dedicated the belt to him.[/EXPAND]
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2006
  3. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    I am very glad I used that PPV it was a good bunch of fights.
    I am looking forward to seeing Coleman get stomped by Fedor in Vegas as well
     
  4. Apotheosis

    Apotheosis Valued Member

    [EXPAND="Spoiler"]
    Mirko vs Wanderlei : This fight really opened my eyes, I admit I have allowed sentiment to cloud my judgement of Wandy. I like the guy, but his style of fighting is going to get him wrecked against a technical striker with power like Mirko. He leaves himself wide open and this is the result. I hope Pride has him fight for the title soon so Shogun can take it as he is the better fighter. Unless Pride feeds Wandy cans I see him really struggling in the future vs anyone who can counterpunch, including Lidell.

    As to Mirko, he was an animal tonight. He ate Wandy for breakfeast and looked anxious for more. Never seen him better.

    Nogueira vs Barnett: Was a good fight, could have gone either way but Barnett did more to end the fight. This fight really wore him out, and Mirko lucked out with the easier fight. Of course he had something to do with ending it so soon as well.

    Sergei vs Aleksander: My first pick I got right, and it was due to Alexs genes' as opposed to his skill. A bit odd but I will tkae a win anyway I can get it. Was a bit dissapointing fight, the guys just danced around most of it except the 30 seconds where Sergi knocked him down and then the end of the fight when Alexs destroyed him...Late ref stoppage.

    Arona vs Overeem: Arona dominated, looked great and actually ended the fight. Look out for him, he is looking scary now.

    -Kazuhiro Nakamura vs Yoshihiro Nakao: Boring fight, thats all I have to say.

    Yousuke Nishijima vs Evangelista "Cyborg" Santo: Cyborg dominated this fight, from the stand-up till when he took it down and got the quick RNC. Very shocked how he dominated the striking,



    Shogun vs Diabate: Shogun got a good win but I was more impressed with the Snake. Great striking, some good ground escapes. If he develops a better sprawl and a good ground game he could be a good mma fighter.

    Mirko vs Barnett : Mirko dominated but I feel that was mainly due to his opponent being worn out. I can't remember Barnett go for 1 takedown, and when he wa son his back he didn't make any effort to escape whcih we know he can do as he was able to escape from Nog multiple times. I liked his leg kicks, perhaps that is Mirko's weakenss on the feet?

    I don't see Silva getting cleared for the Real Deal, or Barnett.

    Mirko will get a shot at Fedor, but I feel as good as Mirko is right now Fedor will come in better.(Isn't Fedor training with Ernesto Hoost lately?) Fedor will take the rematch again.
    [/EXPAND]
     
  5. Sever

    Sever Valued Member

    I'm still examining the picture :D
     
  6. neryo_tkd

    neryo_tkd Valued Member

    hahahaha ok, i can wait :D

    [EXPAND=""]concerning Mirko and Fedor, i agree with A.
    I also think that fedor will win the fight. i don't know how Fedor is recovering from the surgeries but at the moment I don't see anyone beat him. but I'm really glad mirko won the GP.[/EXPAND]
     
  7. Sever

    Sever Valued Member

    All I have to say about the Pride girls is

    [​IMG]

    :D

    [EXPAND="GP"]
    I won't be too surprised if Silva fights at the US event - he wasn't KO'd on American soil in an NSAC-sanctioned event. I don't know whether they'll care, plus he was allowed to go back to Brazil, so no serious head injuries. I see Silva seriously RUINING whoever he fights next. He's a very proud guy, and I'd hate to be his next opponent after this (hell, I'd hate to be his opponent at any time). I seriously think he bulked up too much for this event
    Barnett, if he's got a broken orbital bone, may or may not be on the card for the US show. I don't know how long they take to heal up, but if he's 80% and fighting a can, he'll probably agree to do it[/EXPAND]
     
  8. Apotheosis

    Apotheosis Valued Member

    [EXPAND="Spoiler"]I honestly do not see Silva fighting in October at all, the NSAC is likely going to be cautious with Pride's debut and both them and Pride do not want to see him get hurt badly.

    Just one look at that video and the NSAC will say "Not a chance". His eye as seriously messed up, head split open, likely a concussion of some sorts and speculation of a few broken ribs.

    I don't see Silva wrecking whoever he fights, depending on who he fights. If he gets fed a can which is likely then he will obviously be the same old Silva. If he gets serious competition then I see him having some problems.

    If he fights a good striker I see him going down again, good thing I can't think of a A class striker in his division.

    Anyone think Mirko should cut a little weight to get to 205 if Fedor beats him again? If he drops weight, I see him demolishing Silva again and taking that division by storm.

    As to him bulking up too much, I have to disagree. I don't think that had anything to do with it. His style of fighting was his problem, he leaves himself wide open and Mirko had both the ability and power necessary to make him pay. Same thing will happen if they fight again, unless Silva changes his style of striking which I don't see happening.[/EXPAND]
     
  9. Sever

    Sever Valued Member

    [EXPAND="Spoiler"]
    I don't know that they WILL watch the video to be honest. It's not their turf, not even their country, and it's a month clear after the event. They've sanctioned people after being dropped like that in a short time afterwards. Hell, they've sanctioned boxers to fight twice in the same month after getting KO'd two weeks before. I think it'll mostly depend on who's on the board (and whether they understand the concept of "can opening") and how his pre-fight medicals show up. If the ribs ARE broken, he's out, they don't heal that quick, but a swollen eye and a concussion will most likely be cleared up by October

    You just disagree for the sake of it sometimes, don't you ;) Silva's never been beaten like this since Belfort and every time he's lost before he's worked harder and come back better. He'll be an ANGRY Silva this time, that's not something you wanna be in the ring with. I doubt he'll face a serious competitor before Shockwave though - probably Little Nog. Should be a good match if it happens

    He's fought good strikers before. The difference is that Crocop's beyond a "good striker," he's a former K-1 GP finalist that caught him with arguably the hardest single strike in MMA. Hell, that kick practically had flames on it - I doubt anyone else he'll ever face can do that. He's fought good strikers and will do again, it's just that Crocop's on another level on the feet
    I'm not sure it'd be a good move. He's always been around the weight he is now, dropping down at this point in his career may not be the best move for him. Unlike guys like Couture, Crocop hasn't wrestled so he's not used to cutting weight, the drop may affect his game the way it did Vovchenchyn's when he dropped down
    He seriously seemed uncomfortable at that kind of weight to me. Yeah, he came in wild like always and that's always gonna be a problem against someone who throws nasty straight punches like Crocop does, but he didn't look like he felt right moving at that size. There was a bit much on his 5'11 frame (considering he's normally between 200-210), I think. Tactics were his main problem, as was Crocop being at his absolute best that night, but I genuinely believe it was a contributing factor[/EXPAND]
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2006
  10. Apotheosis

    Apotheosis Valued Member

    [EXPAND="Spoiler"]
    Your right, they may not watch it. But all it would take is for one overly concerned doctor or one mma fan among them to "ruin" it.

    "Puts on tinfoil hat" Not to mention it would be smart of the UFC who has ties to the NSAC to show them the video discreetly.

    They have allowed other fights soon after a knockout, but Silva was demolished and the finishing shot was a brutal leg to the head which is something I have never seen a boxer go through. I can't say for sure how extensive his injuries are, but after seeing some close up pics of his ribs during the fight it looked liek a few were broken.

    I do sometimes, but not now. He has only been beaten like this twice, but when was the last time he fought a real quality striker?

    Rampage has good strikes, but he is wild like Silva....

    Who? Last one I can think of is Rampage and he isn't a great technical striker. You are correct that Mirko has great stand-up and I'm not saying that kick wouldn't have knocked anyone else out.

    He was picked apart by Mirko, I remember a friend asking me if this guy had ever fought before and he was astounded to find out he was MW champ.

    I also am not sure, but he wouldn't be cutting a ton of weight(5-10 lbs max which he could regain in water weight quick) plus if he loses to Fedor where else does he have to go? I would say down to MW or to the UFC to become a champ there.




    He didn't seem uncomfortable to me at that weight, obviously without asking him I can't be sure. Plus that is closer to his natural weight, as he usually cuts 10 lbs to make weight. If anything he should have been faster, smoother etc.. since he didn't have to cut weight. Either way I don't see Silva beating Mirko ever no matter his weight(unles she tricks Mirko into dropping down to a stupid weight like 185)

    Anyway's I think Silva is on his way out in Pride, Shogun should take the belt soon and if Silva fights another good striker(technical, not another wild swinger like himself) I see it going the same way.

    MMA is evolving to the point where you can't leave yourself open the way he does without getting beaten and unless he evolves with it I see up and comers beating him.
    [/EXPAND]
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2006
  11. Sever

    Sever Valued Member

    Possible, but like I say, it can go either way. Boxers have been allowed to go a couple of weeks afterwards after some brutal stoppages. No, they may not have taken head kicks, but they get punched in the head a lot more than most MMA fighters due to the format and rounds.

    Rampage's striking is nowhere near "wild like Silva's" most of the time - he's usually straight down the middle and working the crazy monkey defence like a master - how did he outstrike Liddell? Straight punches. Sure, sometimes he gets wild when he smells blood, but so do most fighters

    Oh, I dunno. Mark Hunt (political loss)? Yvel? Mezger's wasn't bad in his day and Rampage's striking's way better than you seem to think. We'll see how his striking's evolved if/ when he gets in there with Noguiera, he's got very good technical boxing and enough power to make it interesting
    Who's disputing that Crocop picked him apart? He tried the same game that Fedor and Hunt used to keep the pressure on and Crocop was ready for it. It happens. Everyone loses, it doesn't mean they're no good
    Crocop weighs 220-225. That's 15-20lbs he's got to drop to make weight. Have you ever cut weight? That kind of drop would take most people way out of their game (I cut eight last time I had a grappling match and I felt like hell), especially if they weren't used to it. He'd have to fully lose some weight to be able to cut comfortably and some people don't perform as well after a large weight drop. Some do, it's all speculation anyway, Crocop probably won't drop down and I'll buy an emo CD before he fights in the UFC
    You're missing the point - this wasn't Silva who hadn't had to cut any weight, this was Silva who'd put on LOADS. Look at how he looked as recently as the Fujita match compared to the weigh ins, he looked enormous. To me, his fighting style just didn't look as explosive as normal and I think the extra weight was detrimental. He still got beaten, and I'm taking nothing away from Crocop

    This really annoys me everytime you do this man. This isn't Sherdog and a fighter is not only as good as his last fight. You seem to think that whenever someone loses, they're done. This isn't the case. How many times has Silva lost in his weight class in the last seven years? Once, a decision in a two round GP match. He's a long way from being done. Sure, he'll lose again, everyone does, but getting KO'd by Crocop doesn't mean he's on the way out. At all. Shogun is his natural successor, but he's a while away from being there, Silva's just 30, he's got a while left in him
    We can dispense with the spoiler tags now it's aired everywhere
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2006
  12. Apotheosis

    Apotheosis Valued Member

    It's true they get punched in the head more often, but most boxing "experts" which is what the NSAC is really made up of don't really know/care that getting peppered in the head is worse than getting knocked out with one punch.


    Too bad he didn't use those straights more often against Silva, would likely have worked just as well as against Liddel.

    From what I remember Mark beat Silva during the stand-up, knocking him down several times. Only reason it was a close decision is because Hunt has little ground game and Silva was able to take advantage of that.


    Not saying he isn't good, just that he isn't as good as a lot of people think(including myself in the past).

    Yea I have cut weight, not that much but I'm not claiming to be an expert. Pretty well known that many of the best fighters regularily cut weight in that range, Hughes, Franklin, Silva, Shogun, Liddel etc... Again not saying he will or even should drop down, it was just a thought.

    I disagree, I don't think he put on loads... Lets say he usually cuts 10 lbs or so before a fight... That means he only gained 5-10 lbs of muscle and that shouldn't really have effected him a lot. He looked good agaisnt Fujita and he seemed normal against Mirko.

    No, I don't think he is done...But look at his recent fights.

    Loss to Arona, then beat him via decision(very close), beats Fujita(good win) and then is demolished against Mirko. Now again, I am not saying he is done simply that I don't see him coming back and dominating any longer. I don't rate him in the top 3 in his weight division and when I look at him compared to up and coming fighters I think he is in for some trouble.. Judging simply from the UFC crop of young fighters(know squat about Prides) the fighters are coming in with great ground game, and great technical striking. I think we will see more and more great boxers/kickboxers getting into the sport and Silva's style doesn't match up with good technical striking.

    I give him at the most 1 more year of having the belt but after that he will slope off unless he adapts(very possible, he has the speed/power plus cardio for days. Not to mention he has the heart of a champ and if he sets his mind to it I wouldn't put it past him to develop great technical striking. Not saying he shouldn't be aggresive but he throws non-stop hooks and a few jabs/uppercuts would aid him greatly)


    Again, he isn't done nor am I claiming he is. But unless he adapts he won't last more than a year as champ.
     
  13. Sever

    Sever Valued Member

    It's the same thing as always with you - someone you pick to win loses, then you're all "They're not that good really, they're on the way out" then proceeding to tell us how they should have fought, trained etc. It's ridiculous and it belongs on Sherdog with the rest of the fairweather fans. I mean come on, he gets picked apart by a K-1 GP finalist striker fighting outside his weight class and now suddenly you're not ranking Wanderlei Silva at top 3 at 205lbs?!
    Everything else you've said is just disagreement for disagreement's sake. You know it and I'm sick of seeing it
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2006
  14. Apotheosis

    Apotheosis Valued Member

    I have only said that twice from what I can remember, the two being Babalu and Silva.

    The reason I change my opinion of them, is because the original opinion was wrong....If Fedor comes out and loses in a devestating fashion then I will change my opinion of him as well....

    I change my opinion due to the way they lost...

    Babalu got embarrased and while I never said he is done, I did say I thought he was done in the UFC or in for a long battle to get another title shot assuming Chuck doesn;t give up his belt anytime soon... He was hyped up almost solely based on his 10 fight win streak, and then crash his win streak was over and now how can he be hyped? Ortiz hasn't "earned" a shot but he can be hyped...

    Wandy was destroyed, and yes it was to a AWESOME striker but he was still destroyed.

    Mirko is in a class of his own as far as striking goes, but there are other great strikers that Silva will see and unless he changes his style he will lose to them..

    As to my opinion on how they should train and how they should fight, it's my opinion and I never said otherwise... Silva got picked apart with straight lefts so it is common sense to say he should have trained with someone to better prepare against Mirko's favorite punch...

    If you see someone run into a fight with their hands down, is it "stupid" to say they should put their hands up?

    His weight has nothing to do with his loss, he was heavier than Mirko and if you say it is because he bulked up too much then that is his fault...Are you "telling us how he should have trained?"

    Fighters are constantly re-evaluated after each fight, which is what I did after I saw him lose I looked at what I saw from it followed with what I saw by Arona.

    If your curious I rank them

    1.Shogun
    2.Arona
    3.Liddel
    4.Silva

    No, it really isn't.

    If your sick of seeing it, to be honest I don't really care. I am simply posting my opinion and it is not simply for the sake of disagreeing.
     
  15. Sever

    Sever Valued Member

    Firstly, you'll have to excuse me for coming off as harsh. It's been a rotten day and I lashed out unnecessarily for which I apologise
    Your first point - this is something I dislike about fans in many sports. Fairweather fans really do suck. Changing opinions due to losing in one match kinda grates on me - anyone can get beaten soundly, pretty much everyone has been and like I said earlier: a fighter is not only as good as their last fight. I like to look at their career as a whole before proclaiming that they were never really that good or that they're on their way out
    Babalu can be hyped simply because he's a good, exciting fighter that people like to watch (something the UFC's crap division dearly needs). So he's not in an instant rematch with Liddell, it doesn't mean he's done with the UFC
    You've missed my point. At no point have I claimed that he "should've known better than to put on the weight" or that it was to blame for him losing to a superior fighter. I've said I thought his extra size was most likely a contributing factor
    The difference between the way we do it is, again, part of the whole. You give it the "He fought like a moron, got embarrassed, you need to do XYZ to be a champion" whereas I've looked at the match as a whole and tried to avoid any "fighter bashing" as I always do. Frankly, the way you do it rankles me slightly and in my cranky mood, I called you on it because win, lose or draw, these people get in a ring or cage and put their health on the line for our entertainment and I feel they deserve the utmost respect for that

    Arona is a very different fighter though, and is a difficult fight for anyone who's not a seriously high-calibur wrestler which Silva isn't

    I don't think you can rank someone he's beaten recently as two places above Silva. One, yeah, I'd consider (though disagree with), but in no way is Arona the number two LHW in the world. Ranking Liddell above Silva would be controversial, but plausable
    You've openly admitted that you do disagree for the sake of it. That's something which really doesn't fly on MAP as it tends to make threads degenerate into circular affairs which ruin other members enjoyment of the forum. You may not be doing it this time, but I'm going to have to ask that you not do it anymore, OK?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2006
  16. Apotheosis

    Apotheosis Valued Member

    Understandable, we all have bad days.

    Your right, they arn't as good as their last fight. Everyone can have a poor performance, or be sick, or just unlucky.

    I look at it differently though, each fight effects my opinion of a fighter just as each drawing effects my opinion of my artist.

    I'm not so much jumping off of his bandwagon of Silva's(I still love how he fights, acts, talks etc..) as I am hitting the brakes on it. I still think he is a great fighter, just that he is not as great as I thought. Kinda like if Fedor ever loses, it will make him "mortal" but currently he seems untouchable.

    If I said he was never good, then I am a moron. Same goes for Babalu. They are both good, Silva more so than Babalu, I simply overrated them which is my fault.

    Fair enough, just like I think his lack of jab defense and predictable attack(hooks, hooks, more hooks) was a contributing factor.

    Yea, I'll be honest and admit I am pretty blunt in my descriptions/critique. I don't look at it as fighter bashing, as I totally respect anyone who steps into a ring/octagon.

    What you see as fighter bashing I simply see as blunt critique. I hate dancing around subjects, and prefer to give my blunt but honest opinion.

    Yes he is, world class ground game and from what we saw in his recent fight he actually was aggresive and tried to finish it.

    That's the thing, their record is equal, both have a loss and a win against the other but I see Arona's loss as much, much closer than the first. If he actually becomes aggressive and tries to finish fights he will end up finishing them. He had Silva on the ground both fights, but instead of aggressively looking to finish it he was very conservative. Just my opinion, but I think if Arona learns some aggression and develops a style that actually finishes fights then I see him doing very well.

    I think in a rematch Arona would beat Silva, presuming the aggression we saw against Overreem wasn't a fluke. I place him ahead of Chuck because I think he could take Chuck down and keep him there. Of course thats just a guess since we likely won't ever see that fight.




    I do disagree sometimes for the sake of it, but I keep that in the off-topic section where it is more loose and less "serious".

    I don't argue for the sake of it when discussing MMA, because I actually enjoy it as opposed to Catholics R Evil and "The government is lying to you, M&M's really do melt in your hand"
     

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