See my example with my step-son. He wasn't attacking me. I had to restrain him to prevent him from doing property damage and/or hurting himself. That's a completely different situation than if someone's trying to take my head off. Also, if you ever work security, then you may be restricted by the job. If you cross the line then you might lose your job, face legal charges, or even get the employer shut down. There are situations that demand a lower level of response. If you haven't encountered any of them yet ... well, there's a few things to be said about that. A) you're still relatively young (for that matter, so am I) B) hopefully, none of us will ever have to use our skills in any way shape or form, but the world has a way of occasionally conspiring against us in that regard C) hopefully, you'll consider these things before you are in a situation where they're relevant because if you haven't considered them, you'll likely end up in bad shape after the situation To me, "self-defense" isn't about fighting. It's about getting home safely each night. Which, in turn, means I'm not in a hospital, morgue, jail, or court. That means, in order: A) Avoidance B) Non-escalation C) Compromise D) Escape E) Restrain F) Fight Depending on the situation, I may be forced to skip some of those steps. But fighting is my absolute last resort. Period. I've got better things to do than recuperate from injuries, sit in a jail cell or court room, or lay on a slab. Mike
Question goatnipples, have you ever been confronted by anyone on meth? Drunk? Coked out of their skull? How many fights have you actually been in? Mike has made several good points through out this thread, most notable and most freqeuntly stressed is that you must be a well rounded martial artist. Don't ever think that you can predict where an altercation is going to go and how quickly you think you can end it. The neck is all fine and dandy, but as it has been pointed out, not all PP's work the same on every body. Trying striking some no neck bodybuilder on a streroid rage. Won't work. Combinations of strikes, locks, PP's will have more effect. And meth users do feel pain. Just not in the same way you and I would. It takes a bit longer for the pain impulse to reach their addled brains and say "hey, this is going to cause serious damage to my love life if I keep this up". As mike said way back in this thread, train to strike the PP's, Use them as a bull's eye. You may not hit them every time, heck you may never hit them, but you will strike with more focus and penetrating power. And that in turn can have a domino effect on the PP you were striking. It's the old story of the Archer and the Fish. Aim for a specific target and you will come closer to it every time as opposed to the person who just hits. Train yourself to home in on the PP's when training. When I practice Kihon Happo, say, from Ichimonji no Kamae and my partner throws a punch, I aim for the point just below the wrist and strike. My main partner has suffered enough bruises from my repeated striking to this same point. And his hand is usually numb before we're done. Does this help? You betcha. The occasions I have had to use my training, instinct, awareness and training have led my hands and feet and fingers and toes to PP's, joints and ribs as if a string was pulling them. Don't worry about hittinig a spot the size of a dime. Just hit ( or pinch, gouge, pull, whatever) If you never try, never train, then PP attacks are useless. But if you train, try and attack, you have added one more weapon to your already formidable arsenal. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. P.S. And before you ask, yes, I have been up against all that I listed at the top of my post. Plus people tripping, E'ing and just stoned. Would I try to disale them with throat crushing strikes and broken knees? No. I'd be setting myself up for a lawsuit. Besides, different people, different situations call for different responses.
-I don't want to turn this into a "vs." thread, but I feel A need to respond to Goatnipples comment. First, pp's as I said before are NOT about creating pain, they are about disrupting the nervous system. Pain is a by-product that USUALLY goes along with this. Whether someone on meth (or any other drug) feels pain or not may only effect if you try to use escalation of pain as a deterent. If you know effective use of pp's, you can shut the person down pretty easily. For example, a cross-extensor reflex action (don't blame me, that's the medical term for it) will bypass any pain threshold (and I don't mean by that, that they will feel pain, but that it's a moot point.) by scrambling the signals from the brain to tell the body what to do. Second, I'm not only a master instructor in the martial arts, but also a certified tactical master. As such, I train law enforcement, private security, hospital personel, bodyguards, ect. on dealing w/ real-life situations. I bounced while in college(2 1/2 years-Hey, it was the best paying part-time job I could find in a college town.), worked as a bodyguard for various executives and entertainers(my partner in that business was a ex-Navy SEAL who was always getting us in trouble). I have also had the privaledge of working w/ Master Frank Cucchi, the SEAL team member and close quarters instructor who developed the standardized hand-to-hand training methods now used by all US Naval Special Warfare Groups. So yes, Ido know a little about dealing w/ real-life encounters. I also know the federal guidelines for use of force to keep me out of trouble both in criminal and civil court, unless it TRULY is a last resort tactic-situation. Then I can deal w/ that as appropriate. If they are using deadly force, I can respond in kind, but in most situations, if I exercise proper awareness, I can keep it from escalating to that point.(I will admit, this is not always possible, but in most cases, it is a failure on my part somewhere down the line if I let it get to that point). BTW-A question for the Budo Taijitsu practioner from Maryland who posted, do you know Will Mair(Spelling?), he's a budo taijitsu(Bujinkan) master instructor from your neck of the woods. I haven't seen him in several years, but a reat guy(at least when I knew him).
Kwan Jung, no, I don't really know him. I met him a few years ago, seem like a nice guy. But he lives a bit far away from me (over 2 hours). I currently train with a judan in the Bujinkan, who lives only an hour away. Fantastic fellow! Like you I did some bouncing, as recently as 5 years ago. And I agree about PP's not being about pain, but about disrupting (or even shutting down) energy flow or nerve paths.
Hi Just like to add another example of no damaging force. My brother (Craig) was coming back from a night out with 3 of his friends; he was in his early 20’s and had his 1st Dan in Ninjutsu. He was sat in the back of the car with his mate Chris who was extremely drunk. Chris was acting the fool and grabbing his mate in the passenger seat and distracting the driver. Craig told him to pack it in but he continued to lark around, he them started trying to hug and head lock Craig. Craig warned him and on Chris’s 2nd attempt to grab him. Craig locked out his arm next to his neck and forced his head down to his knee’s, and kept Chris there for a few minutes whimpering until he seemed to calm down. At this point Chris promised to behave and Craig let him up, but he instantly started to prat about again so Craig locked him up and kept him that way for the rest of the 20-minute car ride, until they dropped him off at his house. Chris apologised the next day to everyone for causing so much trouble. They were and still are all very good friends. I don’t think a neck or joint attack would really have been appropriate. Solane
Hi Kwan Jang I don't mean to be disrespectful but, as someone with a formal qualification in Traditional Chinese Medicine, I have to point out that not all pressure points used in martial arts lie on meridians or correspond with classical acupuncture points. It sounds like you're mixing up different phenomena to there. The reflexes that cause your hand to move away from a flame do not involve pressure points. Any part of the surface of the human body can trigger such a reflex, it doesn't have to lie on a "pressure point", a tsubo or a meridian. This reflex arc is well understood by modern medicine and is not dependent in any way on the location of pressure points. And yet I have met and spoken to people who Dillman failed to knockout. I have also met at least one person who Moneymaker failed to make his players to the game work on. I don't doubt that light force knockouts can work. But I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "you can duplicate the results yourself on any willing student". Suggestion is a powerful tool and I suspect you can duplicate these things on your own compliant students more easily than on 'non-believers'. Yes, it can work, but it can also fail too. A further (what I found amusing) point. One famous seminar instructor offered to do a 'no-touch' knockout on a friend of mine. My friend declined but said he would send me along to be knocked out. The seminar instructor declined. Imagine that, a world famous karate instructor being scared to demonstrate his no-touch knockout on me, a complete nobody with no special talent or skills. Sure makes one wonder about the validity of no touch knockouts. Mike
You a complete nobody eh? Just did a search in Google under "Mike Flanagan Shiatsu" and you came up in the first 3 topics... Rick Clarke has previously demonstrated KO's but never to the point where we collapse. The technique brings out "blue lightening" which is quite enough for me thank you!
Well, I don't like to blow my own trumpet you know. Anyway, I'm just good at marketing my shiatsu skills on the web. And in terms of martial arts I am a complete nobody. There are many more knowledgeable and skilled martial artists. What amused me was that, at the time that a certain grandmaster declined to show his no touch knock out on me, I wasn't even a dan grade, or in possession of a shiatsu qualification. I was just a kyu grade with an attitude problem I think Rick is much more sensible. He acknowledges that knocking people unconscious is not doing them any good. Any amount of 'energy restoration' afterwards is not going to undo the physical harm that occurs when people are rendered unconscious. Teachers who mess about doing that on a regular basis are playing a foolish and dangerous game. Another thing that I know Rick acknowledges is that not everybody responds the same to the typical pressure point strikes. Mike P.S. Melanie, I trust you got the stuff I sent on core stability OK. Let me how you get on with the exercises.
-In reply to Mr. Flanigan's comments, -First, the point not on merideans or documented in TCM are known as MUE's or "extraordinary points". These points do fit the definition of a nerve center or pp by western medicine and are just as vakid. Apparently, TCM had either ignored or not discovered them for their uses. -Second, if you want to be technical(I was basiccly addressing at least some people w/ less knowledge or background in this area, so I was greatly simplifying things), you are correct in saying that pp's are not DIRECTLY responsble for the feflex response that I quoted> However, if memory serves me (my college courses in physiology and kinesiology were 15+ years ago, si I'll trust in you to correct me if I'm mistaken), these nerve centers are the juncture points(I've forgotten the technical term) for this to occur. Logically, this makes sense since stimulation of these points disruts their function. -Third, as far as the effects of pp KO's being the power of suggestion, I have osed these more than once as a VERY successful alternative to causing severe harm to drop the unwilling and uncooperative. I do agree w/ you that it is unwise and can cause serious problems to do full KO's or do partial ones w/ repetition. I have been injured by one Grandmaster)possibly the same one you refer to) in a seminar byhim not following his own rules of safety. This is why I do continue to work w/ some of his upper dans, but I will not let him touch me(it required 8 wks for me to use my wrist after he used me to demonstrate in a 3-hour seminar, and a year and a half-and help- before fully healed, I don't mean to whine, but you expect a certain amount of trust when you get "volunteered" for such things. -Finally, as far as somene not wanting to use you as their demonsrtator/uke/whipping boy, I'd say count your blessings. Seriously, this could be attributed to fears of liability to not liking your attitude and not wanting to show you extras that were not part of the seminar package you paid for. I have seen Leon Jay do non-touch KO's on people and gave them no expectation of what to expect. I have experimented w/ this myself and have been successful(dan-students can be fun to sacrifice for learning. LOL), but have found that I must fully relax to pull this off and under stress or tension/pressure, my success is diminished. There is an old Chinese saying you may be familiar with-a amn who claims something can not be done should get ouy of the way of the man who is doing ot.
Hi Kwan No need to be so formal, just plain old "Mike" will be fine. There are extra-meridian points within TCM, but as for these modern MUE's I'm not sure who decides whether a newly discovered 'interesting' point is a MUE or not, nor whether there is any consensus of opinion. But I do know that there are some very effective points that do not appear in any of the texts on chinese medicine that I possess. Take Lung 5 for example, or rather the point that many martial artists claim is Lung 5. It is a good 3 sun (anatomical units) away from the real Lung 5, that' quite a distance when you're discussing pressure points. But why do people use that point instead of the real classical Lung 5? Because it works a hell of a lot better. So we just gloss over the 'theory' a bit there. You call the MUE's 'nerve centres' or 'western pp'. I'm not entirely surely what you mean by those terms. 'Nerve centre' makes me think of nerve ganglia, but there aren't that many of those in the body. Perhaps you mean junctions of nerves? Personally I prefer to think of points where nerves are accessible and can be squashed between your fist/hand/weapon and underlying tissues (the hammer and anvil effect). The ulnar nerve in the upper arm for example can be usefully accessed along its length and not just at the classical point Heart 2. The end result is that people use points that were not used in classical TCM and yet still quote TCM theory to explain why they work. Gilding the lilly somewhat in my opinion. Well I may be mistaken but I have not read anything in medical literature to suggest that the reflex arc has anything to do with pressure points, whatever definition you're using for 'pressure points'. I'd be interested to see any medical literature that does support this idea. The important part of the reflex arc occurs at the spinal cord, where sensory signals are translated into motor signals to various muscles, without reference to the brain. Granted, the crossed extensor reflex is a slightly different thing. It can be produced by directly attacking a pressure point, but it is the old 'Lung 5' which as I've already pointed out is not a classical tsubo (acupuncture point). In what sense are you saying it disrupts their function? A modern medical sense? A TCM energetic sense? I have yet to read a book on TCM that describes how energetic functions are affected by violently attacking tsubos. Unless of course one is reading a book by a modern martial arts master who is completely misquoting TCM. I didn't mean to imply that all such KO's are a result of suggestion, but in some of those I've seen that is clearly the case. I have videos that show pp KO's in which the victim was helped to the floor by volunteers, seemingly because he wasn't actually going to fall over of his own accord. And like I said originally, I know people who have not succumbed to some master's best attempts to KO them, even though they were bashing the victims really quite hard. Was the damage caused energetically, or because he smacked you too hard? I'm sorry, that simply wasn't the case. I had no direct communication with the master in question. I did not show a bad attitude. At that time I had nothing but respect for 'grandmasters'. It is only by their words and deeds (and in some cases their unwillingness to demonstrate what they claim they can do) that I have come to consider some of them charlatans. In this case the grandmaster offered, of his own free will, to show a no touch KO. He then retracted the offer. He was going to do some of his standard KO's anyway, so there shouldn't have been any liability issues. No, he chickened out, plain and simple. Can you describe the process by which you achieve the no touch KO? Personally I'll believe it can be done when I see it done on a non-compliant individual. And, no disrespect meant, but I won't get out of the way of 'the man who is doing it'. Not until he proves it to me, at which point I will become his most devoted student. So if anyone wants to knock me out without hitting me, well you know where I live. (Please note that the offer is not open to people who do no touch KO's by chucking a brick at the victims head, or farting at them - these sort of KO's I can do myself already thanks). I don't mean to be disrespectful Kwan, but I fear you have been fed some degree of pseudo-science by your own teachers. TCM is an art, not a science. When people start throwing scientific terms around with TCM, that is when your alarm bells should start ringing. Respectfully, Mike
-I am in a hurry, so my reply will be short(for once). When I have more time, I will give a more complete one( and probably bore everyone). My educational background includes being accepted to and beginning work on my master's in kinesiology(I dropped out of that program, but that is a different story), so while a little rusty, I'm pretty good at spotting the pseudo-science. Also, I am not a student of Mr. Dillman or other pp seminar instructors, though I do play w/ some of his master-level students. I use him for reference because he has what I've seen as the best cross use of east and west in the MA media. I have seen much more practical application used by Tom Patire in his CDT system for tactical trainers. Very good nerve disruption material. I've also gotten good stuff from the gentleman in charge ofStanford University's pilot program in creating a dept. in Life Force Sciences. Finally, you're probably closer to Leon Jay than to me, but if you're willing to do some no-touch work w/ him, you can ask. If you're ever in the Nashville area, I'll be happy to show you in person at least some no touch nerve disruption, and maybe even a KO(I even promise to NOT use a brick), however, I don't intend on making any trips to England in the near future. Also, no offense, but if I prove it, you still have to go home
Hey ... is this an open invitation? I'm not too far from Nashville. Not sure when I'd be able to make it down there, but a trip in the not-too-distant future wouldn't be inconceivable. I freely admit that I'm pretty skeptical about no touch KO ... but I'm open-minded enough to be a guinea pig if you're willing Or, if you're ever in or near Louisville, feel free to contact me. Mike
Hi Kwan You won't bore me, I'd definitely welcome an in-depth discussion. That's impressive enough but, to be honest, an argument should rest on its own merit rather than on the qualifications or reputation of the person making the argument. In your previous post you talked about 'the definition of nerve centres and pressure points by western medicine' but I simply don't understand what these terms mean in from the point of view of modern medicine. A 'nerve centre' could mean many things. As for 'pressure points', the only pressure points I know of in modern medicine are points that are pressed in first aid to stem blood supply, in a manner similar to a tourniqet. For example, the femoral artery can be compressed in the inguinal crease in order to restrict blood supply to the leg, if someone is bleeding heavily from the leg. I'm pretty sure this isn't the sort of pressure point you mean. I'm not aware of any all encompassing modern medical definition of the tsubos of oriental medicine or the vital points of martial arts. So, without rigorous and widely accepted definitions, terms such as 'nerve centre' and 'pressure point' might sound sciency but don't actually mean anything at all. That sounds like pseudo-science to me. I realise this is not intentional on your part so I'd welcome any further information on these points. This sounds interesting, I'll see if I can find out more about him. I've never met Leon Jay but I have every respect for him. That said, if he could reliably knock people who aren't his own students out without touching them I reckon there'd be a long queue at his door. Martial artists in the UK would flock to him in droves. I'm not aware of that happening yet. I've already had one offer to be rendered unconscious in this manner, but then the offer was retracted for reasons best known to the grandmaster who made the offer. That's all the evidence I need. Thanks for an interesting discussion, Mike
-Hello Mike(s), Ihave been busy dealing w/ taxes and this month is my own school's 10th anniversary, so my wife has had me doing special events almost daily. I needed a holiday weekend just to have time to reply. Before I address your (Mike Flanagan) points, I want to say after more carefully reading your previous posts and looking up your website, I find that we have a lot of interests in common and I feel that we can probably both benefit by sharing insights, whether we always agree or not, 1)As far as the reflex net goes(and I still am truly open to correction if I'm off on this), I am still using my original posts definition of a pp(which is very similar to what you had previously posted on page 5). Let me give an example of what I mean as a more "western medical perspective". If a stimuli(say burn, since that is what we strarted with) is picked up on, say an auxillary branch of the radial nerve, the signal is transmitted up to the main branch, where those points connect is what we in MA call pp's. This then moves up to the spine(basically the CNS switchboard) to c-6(if I remember correctly-could be c-5). If I am mistaken about the responsible process, let me know, but it seems to me we are basically talking about the same process and the difference is more one of semantics, if it is, then I'm getting tired of going around on this merry-go-round(Mommy, I'm dizzy and want to get off!
-Sorry, I was interuped. To continue my response to Mike F. 2)Let me re-state that I am not a member of DKI and my school is not one of their affiliate network. I have found their materials(books, vids, ect.) very useful. I have espescially found playing and sharing w/ some of their master instructors to be fun and rewarding(the one's I play w/ have been great guys w/ a lot to share). As far as Mr. Dillman straying from TCM, as it has been explained to me, they use TCM terms as a more common language/reference since most literature on the subject, especially any older MA texts, use these terms. Also, they use TCM as a general roadmap. One thing I really respect about what they are doing is that they are using not just TCM, and older texts, but are using more modern, western scienticic resourses to learn more and grow. Going into university ex. phys. labs and kinesiology labs and trying to see what is really going on. Doing medical studies(at least when they can get the proper people to play). As an example, DKI uses the TCM term of the 5 elements. While the periodic table goes a LOT higher than five, and I don't recall any of the TCM onews on the table, the theory as a metaphor to describe the dynamics between the points is just as valid. I have noticed that in some of DKI's new material, their use of relations between elements and either increasing or decreasing the effectiveness of (for instance) finger locks does not follow along w/TCM. They claim (and I feel) they are not being bound by tradition and are just following where the evidence and experimentatioon leads . This is just the scientific method at work. TCM may give a map of the terrain to follow, but the map is not the terrain, and by exploring with an open mind, we learn and grow. Mike, with your formal knowledge of TCM, feel free to point out where they do deviate from the map, I really am interested to know.
Sorry. again. I am still pretty much a novice on posting on the web and get bumped a lot(especially on such long winded, boring posts), when they keep flashing the warning sign, I fear I'm going to lose what I've typed and end it.(If more experieced posters know any tricks of the trade, I'm listening/reading). Back to Mike F. (don't worry Mr.Castro, I willrespond to you too). 3) Tom Patire and his CDT system for tactical training can be found at CDT-Training. com and the NAPMA video series has segments of his seminars from one of their instructors conferences. Really good material. 4)As far as "No touch KO's" are concerned, Let me start by saying that MY main use off pp's has been to enhance my grappling. I have used Tuite to attack a point tomanipulate a joint with outstanding success against some outstanding practitioners of BJJ, submission grappling, and NHB. They were amazed that how easily I was able to break theri hold or reverse them w/little or no effort. Especially, when they were sure they had me(this has backfired once or twice by my being over-confident and waiting too long and I've been caught). I do use kyusho, to enhance my hand strike combos, mainly in trapping and in kenpo. This is not my specialty, but it has worked very well for me against opponents that either were inferior at set-point control or I've closed the gap in well w/, or I'm countering. When it comes to energy projection, I have been intrigued with this for years and have studied chi gung/kundalini to develop my self and have went to seminars or trained in Quantum Touch, reiki, therapeutic touch(a method that is now common training for RN's in Canada, so I'm told). I have read about and talked to people who have studied w/ Ueshiba, Hatsumii, and others who are said to be able to accomplish quite a bit in this area. At first, I was quite skeptical, and still will attribute some to exagerration. Still, after the weirdness of going through the greater kan and li(kundalini), I don't discount anything anymore. I know that both UC San Fransisco and Stanford have put considerable resources into studies on these topics, and that a lot of it follows predictions of the Uncertainty principle in Quantum mechanics(and though higher physics is aa hobby of mine, I am admiiedly more of a "general relativity kind of guy' than a ' special relativity guy").
Argg! That is so frustrating. I was almost finished and they bumped me(HELP). continuing w/ energy projection. I have had an interest in this area for many years. I have been/still am a practioner of chi gung and kudalini. I have either trained in or attended seminars in Quantum touch, reiki, and therapeutic touch (a method that I'm told is now a common part of training for RN's in Canada). I know that both UC San Francisco and Stanford have put considerable resources to study this area, and I've read some of their findings. -Having said this, my main use of pp's is in grappling. Stmulate the point to attack the joint. I have had awesome success w/ this against top tier practitioners of BJJ, NHB, and submission grappling. They have been amazed how I have virtuously effortlessly broke their submission hold or revered on them w/ ease. (I must admit that I've been caught once or twice by underestimating my opponent and waitin to long, overconfidence can get us all). I do use pp strikes(kyusho) very effectively in trapping, or to enhance kenpo couner-strike combos. Also, if my opponent is inferior at set-point control, if I bridge the gap well, I can set him up for this.Before I go into energy projection, let me say that I would never rely on this for combat conditions, but I have enjoyed experimenting/playing with this at different levels for years. In other words, I use it for me to play and grow, it's NOT part of the cirriculum. - I have been doing close proximity, no-touch disuptions of the energy/nervous system for years and completely confident in my ability to demonstrate this on anyone, skeptics are welcome, and will openly do so in public. For the last year or so, I've been playing w/ and refining energy work at greater distances that actually move the other person(no, I don't think I'm a jedi, but it's fun to explore) and I'm etting better and better results. I had read for years and heard from witnesses what men like Ueshiba and Hatsumi were capable of. I thought it was either b.s. or greatly exagerated. After the wierdness when I went through the greater kan and li/kundalini, I've since learned to be more open to at least the possibilities. I'm getting closer to the section that I got bumped before when I really got into the "no-touch KO's", so rather than lose it I'm going to post this and come back.
-My own experiences with "no touch KO's" comes from Leon Jay. I have personally experienced a light touch KO from him and seen him do this easily on request, I have personally observed him perform two no-touches from a considerable distance. I know for certain that at least one of the uke's were not cooperative and had no expectations. I did approach Leon afterwards about what was involved and the how-to's. Now realize that I am one of the senoir master-level students of a BLACK BELT HALL OF FAME instructor that both he and his father have worked with and known for decades. I have also been Leon's whi[[ing boy/uke at seminars several times. It waasn't until he knew that I had went through the kundalin?greater kan and li and had one of Mr. Dillman's senior instructors(8th dan) vouch for me that he offered to start to ' show me the ropes" of what was involved. After the seminar; Leon, myself, and a couple of the DKI masters stayed for nearly two hours to exchange and play. Several reasonably advanced dans in DKI were gone before we could begin to play(whether or not at other sessions they learn this or not, I don't know, but at least my perception was that they were being avoided at this time). BTW-my wife, who was riding w/ me was allowed to watch. Uh-oh, be back in a minute.
