Thanks for the info Mike & Tkd, it is very complicated stuff. I think I need a pressure points for dummies book Or maybe a top ten list of points usable in a fight. Although the health side is also very interesting!
Hi all I've been taking a sabbatical over christmas. But now I'm back and I'm bad. Oh OK, maybe I'm just slightly naughty. Anyway I'd say pressure points can be really helpful. But first a few observations, and I make no apologies if these observations don't sit well with anyone. 1. I'd take no notice of chinese medical theory with regard to pressure points. I see it as a complete red herring. See my article in the articles section of this website on this very same website. And I'm saying it as someone who has formal qualifications in chinese medicine and uses those concepts in my work as a therapist. 2. Also be a little sceptical about using acupuncture points as a guide for vital point location. Sure, many acupuncture points make good vital points, but there are plenty of other potentially more useful points that are not classical acupuncture points. 3. Sometimes its more useful to think of pressure zones than single points. 4. Sometimes pressure points don't work when you grab (as opposed to strike) them. There are lots of theories about why this is but the simple fact is that they don't work too well on about 10% of the population. So you don't rely on them, you add them to already good technique. I use vital points in nearly everything martial that I do. They are an integral part of my martial art. There are many useful points. But learning to use them properly takes a lot of practice. Just like learning to do a head height roundhouse kick takes a lot of practice. But the advantage is that in 30 years time I'll still be able to strike vital points effectively whilst most of us will be unable to perform powerful high kicks as our zimmer frames will get in the way. Can you use them in a real fight? I'm sure you can, as long as you go about it the right way (in which case its almost impossible to miss them). From what I've seen many pressure point people do not use them in the right way though. Happily, I've never had to use such techniques in a real confrontation but my prior experience gives me a realistic view on what I can or can't achieve when push comes to shove. Mike
You make it too hard on youselves. I believe when it comes to pp and striking them all you need to do is condition your Phoenix-Eye/Ippon-Ken/Tiger's Tooth (one knuckle punch). Then everytime you strike you put all your force into a space about the size of a dime (dillman explains a pp is about the same size). Maybe it's just me, but that makes the most since. I don't have any training in the arts, but I do have training from where it counts, the streets.
Re: You make it too hard on youselves. It also means that you're putting all your force through 2 joints in your forefinger that were not designed to transmit such force. Its hard to see how this could not be damaging to you in the long run. Mike
I have come to silence the haters! You're right about using full force on two knuckle joints, but IF it is conditioned your more than ok. I don't practice as of yet, but I will in about a week when I get my heavy bag. I started my research about martial arts two years ago. Since then I have read about damn near all the martial arts and why they do the things they do (fighting wise). I don't see it hurting me in the long run because I'm a firm believer in gradual conditioning. My one knuckle punch might no be tough enough to withstand maximum force on it right now, but in a year you better watch out. Here is my training curriculm for MY hands, No set time frame, progress when it FEELS right. If you could set a time limit then I'd be a master in exactly 5 min. 1.) Closed fist 2.) Leopard fist 3.) 2 Knuckle punch 4.) 1 Knuckle punch This way I GRADUALLY progress to the next level when it FEELS OK to move on (or better yet, when I can strike with full power using each technique). If that ain't solid, tell me what's shakey.
goatnipples :woo: what's shakey is your leg's when I threw that jab cross low round house combo :woo:
One of my attacks that is second nature is to the neck and a pressure point area. I was told when first learning that this area has 3 possible out comes. 1 just the pain from my attack, 2 increased pain for actually hitting the pressure point & 3 unconsciousness for hitting it bang on. All dependant on the person you are fighting as stated before different people react differently to pain. So my instructor said never count on anything more than getting reaction 1, and be moving onto another attack straight away. If you get reaction 2 or 3 all the better. I also have now been told that after 8 years of training I have to be more careful of striking this are as my strenth and power could cause far more damage to the neck than I am expecting. Hope that helps the discussion. Solane PS. I dont actually study Karate I practice Ninjutsu
Re: I have come to silence the haters! So you don't actually practice this but you feel free to tell us all about it? It won't hurt you because of what you believe? Your body doesn't give jack-sh*t what you believe. If you damage it it'll hurt alright. What's shaky is the fact that you're telling us about something you don't actually do. Go and practice it for 10 years THEN come and tell us all about it. Incredulous, Mike
I agree, the neck is an excellent target and one well worth attacking in a serious self-defence situation, ie. one in which you have reason to fear for your life. I agree with this too. Attacking vital points is something that should be added to already existing good technique, but only as long as it does not detract from that technique. Yes, necks are very fragile and should only be struck in situations of extreme danger. An alternative I like for milder situations is simply to grab or press points on the neck. Mike
Re: Re: I have come to silence the haters! Lol very true Mike very True. GoatNipples2002 It is fine to say you have done a lot of reading and you are thinking of training this way and even to ask if what you are considering is sound. But then to discount the advice of people with far more experience in the field you are going into is untrue. I have been training since I was 11 years old I stopped training when I was 29 years old as I moved to a new area and job. I did 9 years of judo and the last 9 years in ninjutsu. When I was 28 I was doing a demonstration for the students and as part of a video with my instructor under controlled conditions on mats. I got both legs swept from under me and ended up hitting the floor in a sitting position. I continued with the demonstration and then 3 weeks later put my back out at work or so I thought. The doctor said it was a pulled muscle, but I went to a physiotherapist my family knows and he actually correctly diagnosed that I had fractured my lower back. As the muscle spasms and amount of movement I had were not consistent with a pulled muscle. I eventually returned to training after 5 months and full training after 7months. My point is I received a nasty injury under safe conditions with my own experience totalling 17 years with my instructors easily double that. I have always trained at least twice a week for 2 hours at a time. To hear you dismiss Mike who probably has even more experience than me is very silly. You need the guidance of a decent instructor before you start training your hands and for that you need to find a decent club. I just hope you are sensible enough to listen to us before you injure yourself. Solane
I have not stated where or what part of the neck I attack as anyone who is training probably has a good Idea of where I target. I don’t want some of the younger or more irresponsible members of these forums thinking cool that sounds like fun and attacking friends and family to see if it works. As Mike stated the neck is very fragile if you don’t know what you are doing. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing when you are ignorant of the consequences. Train safe Solane
-A pressure point is where a nerve either crosses(like an"X") or braches(like a "y"). There are over 720 on the human body with roughly 120 of easy access. The activation area for each point is approx. the size of a (US) quarter. They run along lines called merideans that correspond to a related organ(or in the case of tripple warmer, gland). The real purpose of pp's is to serve as a safety mechanism to bypass the concious control of the brain(this is why if you put your hand on a hot burner, you don't have to wait to smell your flesh burningand decide to remove your hand). These points can be "tricked" into releasing a joint so that it will not be damaged(ex.golgi reflex response). When a pp is activated(some are push points, some strike, some rub), most people experience pain as a by-product, but that is not the objective as this can be resisted. You have pp's at the origin and insertion of every muscle as well as a minimum of four for every joint in the human body. I would recommend Mr.Dillman's books for reference as he gives detailed lists of each point in both terms of TCM as well as western medicine; you can access other point info on www.kyusho.com,as well. Pres.point work is divided into two complentary areas:kyusho for striking, which includes combos along the meridean, along the cycle of destruction, diurnal cycle of ki,ect. Let me add to others comments; 1)If you train w/ adrenal stress response as a factor, it is not a big deal once you become accustomed to it and hampers you far less and in fact can enhance performance as it was designed to do. 2)Practicing your attacks/strikes in sequence is just like playing pool/billiards, you sink the shot, but set up the next one. This is also anintegral part of Ed Parker's American Kenpo system. W/ practice, it's pretty simple. 3)I have used this both in class settings and as a Bouncer(through college) and bodyguard(after college bfore opening my school) in the streets and combat conditions with ease and great success. The second section is tuite (I am using the Okinawan terms since the majority of material in the media uses these terms, but you could just as easily substitute chin na, dim mak, keupso, or any other equv. term), the art of pressure point grappling. My personal favorite, considering that while Ican use this to maim or kill, I have the option to control the situation w/ little or no damage to the other person. I can be more merciful, as well as avoid legeal problems. When you set up a cross-extensor reflex action(don't blame me, that's the medical term for it), the attacker loses all body control as the brain can't get the signals through to the body.(I love doing this to my black belts for all the grey hairs they've given me). -P.S. Being very large and muscular(6'1" -255lbs-cut), I am the favorite whipping boy at virtually every seminar(have to show it works on gorrilas too), I can testify that Dillman's (and Jay's) methods work and that touch KO's are not only real, but you can duplicate the results yourself on any willing student(or any unwilling who is late w/ their tuition.-LOL).
Structural manipulation over nerve manipulation I have thrown the idea of me training the 1 knuckle punch out the door. It isn't very practical because it takes too many years to develop to it's full potential. If I have to defend myself I want to know something that might take me 6-9 months to learn over 5 years. This ain't 1414 any more. I think pressure points are OK, but structural targets are the best. Listen up before you get to talk about why they are so effective. First if you we're to encounter someone on meth, someone drunk, someone "high" off of adrenaline or some ******* that has an extreme tolerance to pain what do you do? Pressure points won't help your ass, now will they!!!!! I focus on structural targets now. Like breaking ribs (right below the armpit), the neck (preferably in the area of cv22, but any shot to the neck is more than OK), or the knee joint. There are many more, but these are my primary targets. I have recently started Muay Thai and this has changed my mind about the whole pressure point thing. I feel that atructural manipulation is the best because you can't build up a joint to take abuse, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE. Now argue that.:woo:
Nothing is guaranteed. There are people who will take your best shot and shrug it off. There are people who have very flexible joints and can fight right through joint locks. There are people who are very agile in general who can take your full kick directly to their knee and, by turning their leg, prevent any kind of injury to their leg. In a fight, there are absolutely no guarantees as to what will or won't work. About the closest you can get to a guarantee is that no one will come out unblemished (and that's not even guaranteed, but it's highly unlikely to happen). This is why it's best to be well-rounded. So you can flow from one thing to the next. If you're well-rounded, you have a chance at preventing yourself from getting seriously injured while you continue to attack. If you put all your eggs in one basket (whether it's a certain type of strike, striking points, striking in general, grappling, groundfighting, weapons, etc.) ... eventually, someone will come along and sit on your basket, breaking all your eggs. Don't try to find "the ultimate solution" ... try to become well-rounded so you have a likely solution for a lot of possibilities. Mike
I agree, but I used to rely on pp now I focus on structural damage. You try fighting through a broke on windpipe or ribs that are poking your lungs.
That's fine and completely valid. My point is, don't rely on any one thing ... period. You won't always be able to land the shot that collapses the trachea or breaks the ribs. Mike
Oh. And something else to consider. Crushing tracheas, breaking necks and ribs, dislocating joints is all good stuff. But there are situations where it's not what you want to do. These situations may be due to "rules of engagement" on a job (i.e.: working security or law enforcement) or they may be due to the nature of the attacker. If he's a buddy or relative who's gone temporarily nutso, then permanent injuries (much less lethal force) may not be what you want to do. When I've most commonly been put in this situation, it was with my step-son. He's a high functioning autistic and has occasional bouts of paranoia and/or schizophrenia (among other things). On occasion, I'd have to restrain him. The last time it happened, for instance, he was 19 years old, stood 6' 2" and weighed about 200 lbs. I pinned him down and held him, applying various joint locks to keep his mind occupied and prevent him from really trying to fight me. My wife understood the necessity of what I did and was OK with it, but seeing it still stressed her out pretty badly. If I had put him in the hospital or the morgue, it would have been that much more difficult for my wife (even if my actions had been justified and/or necessary). Never rely on any one thing because you will, eventually, encounter a situation where that one thing isn't available for one reason or another, or just doesn't work. Mike
In reply to "Goatsnipple", -Seeing as how pressure point attacks target the nervous system and dirupt nerve transmission, being drunk, on meth(or other drugs) actually make you more suseptible, not less. Being adrenalized or having a high pain tolerence is of no value either, if the person using the kyusho or tuite knows what they are doing and how to apply it. I would agree w/ you in the value of doing structural damage; obviously if you hit someone in the nose w/ a sledgehammer (or land a good sidekick to their knee), you will do some damage. However, this requires both a level of athleticism that some students(or potential ones) may not have. Also, think about the moral and LEGAL consequences of doing severe structural damage in anything less than a life or death situation. BTW-I was introduced to Muay Thai by Benny "the Jet" Urquidez in 1980 and have trained w/ (world champ) Alex Gong and the trainers at the Fairtex camp . Muay Thai is a part of the cirriculum I teach and my record as a professional kickboxer was 8-0. I've also toyed w/ the idea of calling up Scott Coker, the promoter of the US K-1 fights and seeing if I can play. At close to 40 and having knee injuries(which make my knees feel 80) is the only reason I spend any time griping about "Why didn't they have a well promoted kickboxing/full-contact event that paid well enough to keep me in the sport 15-20 years ago", instead of just getting in there (anybody see what happened to Rick Roufus' knee at last years' K-1. OUCH!). So, when you say that you're now into muay thai, I know that terain too. -Personally, I agree w/ Mr. Castro in that being well-rounded is a must. My contention is that proper knowledge of pressure points is an important part of that.-KJN.
I'm the type of person that has no remorse for ANYBODY trying to hurt me. I don't care who runs up I don't discriminate on ass whoopins. If they're trying to hurt me (I mean seriously trying to hurt me) I'm going for the throat(cv22), the knee joint, and the "special" spot below your armpit (if you've been hit there with just a little power you underdig what I'm talkin bout). Kwan Jang you must have not encountered anybody on meth because you would understand they don't feel pain. I hope you never find out the wrong way. Plus it takes too much precision and concentration to try and strike a moving target in a spot that's about the size of a dime. I rely on several techniques to keep me alive in the streets. Believe PP aren't the first means of defense for me.
