Preemptive strike

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by neems, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. neems

    neems Valued Member

    [ame=""]FUNNY KO LOL Black Guy Gets Knocked Out by a White Guy in a Restaurant - YouTube[/ame]

    Is this in your opinion good use of preemptive striking?
    legally (wherever you are)?

    Obviously he should have walked away if he felt that would have stopped the argument escalating,but he didn't,and that wasn't necessarily the wrong thing to do,better than possibly getting followed out and attacked outside alone.

    And of course the woman shouldn't have punched/slapped him when he was out,but other than that it's fine by me.
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    No and no. He shouldn't have argued. He should have left probably about a minute or two before whoever this was started filming.

    Not self defence, not even a little.
  3. neems

    neems Valued Member

    We don't know what happened before it started to be filmed,legally no-one has a duty to retreat if attacked,from a moral standpoint I agree.

    In reality it's just a good idea most of the time.

    I've got into arguments,walked away and been followed then attacked,so that knowledge would factor into my decision.

    At least in that crowded place someone would call the police and/or intervene if it all went wrong.
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    No but there is a legal obligation to only pre emptively strike when left no other options. There were definitely options. The fact that they got in a ready stance to both fit tells me that ego was there and that either one could have backed down but didn't.
  5. Travess

    Travess The Welsh MAPper Supporter

    I'm with Chadderz on this one - The preemptive striker had a clear avenue of escape/retreat, as an alternative option, so justifying the strike would be a hard sell.

    Where is the attack? As you yourself stated, this was a preemptive strike, taking place before any (potential) attack was thrown. I will concede to it being a confrontation, but that again raises the question, why did he not take advantage of the clear exit route?

    Now, if the other guy had been stood between him and the door, then it would be another story entirely.


  6. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    Agreed. This was a sucker punch against a guy who was grandstanding or monkeydancing. The response was to confront rather than attempt to de-escalate. If you are asking if it is a good example of timing or technique, then yeah it was timed well and it did the job. But his approach was to grandstand back. Had he put a fence up it would have clearly shown any attempt by others observing that his aggressor was moving into his space.
  7. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    The white guy was being just as aggressive and is just as much at fault.

    Also - the punch was telegraphed. That said, you can't argue with the result.
  8. CrowZer0

    CrowZer0 Assume formlessness.

    What was the guy doing? Was that some sort of a stance or was he making fun? (Was he drunk?) To be honest if two guys are fronting and it looks like it's about to pop off, I say let them at it. I'm not sure I would consider that a "preemptive strike" it seems they were squaring up.

    That woman was a lowlife.

    Judging by the reaction of onlookers and how no one jumped to help see if they guy who got knocked out was hurt leads me to assume, maybe he was asking for it.
  9. neems

    neems Valued Member

    He was either drunk on drugs or just crazy,running away isn't always the safest option,I don't think he had anyone there who would have held him back had he followed them down the street.

    Without being in that position I can't say what I would have done,but if I got the impression he was going to follow me i certainly wouldn't walk away.

    When he takes up that strange stance it's obvious he's going to initiate something soon,so laying him out was the best possible outcome imo.
  10. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Nope , that "stance" tells me he was a clueless idiot , the other guy should have just walked away instead of trying to impress the girl.
  11. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    You're wrong.
  12. Travess

    Travess The Welsh MAPper Supporter

    I agree that once an aggressive, attacking or even 'strange' posture has been made, it would be pretty foolish to turn you back in an attempt to leave. That being said though, the opportunity to leave was present before the posture was made, so it was a viable option, until it was no longer a safe one.

    Worth noting as well though, if as you say, you would have reacted the same way, and had you then found yourself having to explain your actions to the police, you may have a hard time justifying your actions. There have already been 6 separate 'Eye witnesses' (other posters) remarks, that disagree with the necessity of the strike, which, for lack of a better term may end up discrediting your statement.


  13. neems

    neems Valued Member

    I would have walked away if I didn't think an unhinged lunatic was going to follow me,I'd rather deal with that in a well lit place with plenty of people around.

    Walking away really isn't always a good idea,very often it's better to stay put.

    Also posture is important for the camera,I wouldn't have stood like him I always make sure my posture says 'I don't want to fight' if I'm being filmed and think a fight is going to happen,which I think even on here would sway a lot of peoples opinions.
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That guy was winding up his right hand from the start of the video. He wanted to hit the black guy long before he adopted that weird posture.
  15. neems

    neems Valued Member

    His posture is pretty bad/hard to defend because it's not obviously defensive,
    but he has the right not to be bullied into walking away even if that was the sensible option.

    When the guy adopts some sort of aggressive fighting stance and moves toward him it makes it obvious he's ready to fight.
  16. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Ah pride , the number 1 cause of violence.
  17. Blink

    Blink New Member

    Yeah, they were both in the wrong here. He should have just walked away.
  18. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Sorry but ''moves towards him''? Where does this happen after the guy adopts the weird stance? Possibly ready to fight but only if the 2nd guy decides to move up and start things. Some might consider the 1st guy to be assuming a defensive posture (weird as it might be). I think the guy who punched would get prosecuted here in the UK. Any comments from LEO's?

    The right not to be bullied into walking away? That's a very subjective thing. Do you think that if the other person is doing something that you consider bullying that you have a right to hit them?

    I don't know which country you live in but usually the law looks down on someone enforcing what they see as the proper way of doing things.

  19. neems

    neems Valued Member

    No that's not what I mean, he was going about his lawful business when some idiot appeared to instigate a fight/pose an immediate threat,regardless of any argument etc before hand,that doesn't justify threatening behavior or disallow people the right to defend themselves.

    It is twisting it to suggest he knocked someone out for acting the fool/bullying him.

    I used to work as a store detective,once I attempted to arrest someone for theft and he threw a punch which I avoided he looked as if he was going to follow up with his other hand but I kicked him as he stepped in,which broke one of his ribs,he walked away a few feet then came back with his hand cocked so I hit him with a right hand which knocked him out and broke his cheek bone and jaw.

    I was lawfully arresting someone,and he attacked me so I defended myself using reasonable force,several local police came in while on their rounds having viewed CCTV and told me it was a very good example of reasonable force (it was a small town,they were probably bored),I remember it well because I was bricking it when I found out later that day the injuries he'd received.

    You could twist that into I beat him up for stealing,but that just isn't the case,as in the video the skinny fella had the right to be there and apparently felt the lunatic was an immediate threat,he perhaps should have walked away but had no duty to do so.

    Anyway not a drunken,but half cut ramble,thanks for the reply mate.
  20. combatarts

    combatarts Valued Member

    I don't get preemptive strikes unless they have their hands hidden in pocket/behind back. Most of the time people are just posturing up and never really want to strike.

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