Pre attack indicators

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Brixtonbodunwel, Nov 13, 2022.

  1. Brixtonbodunwel

    Brixtonbodunwel Valued Member

    A lot has been written about pre attack indicators and always will be as it is the only chance to maximize one’s chances to take appropriate action. Reconizing attack indicators can stop attacks, avoid injuries and prevent death

    However, what if their aren’t any and there is a sudden explosion of violence? That seems to flies in the face of the evidence/ thinking. Or are some so subtle that one cannot pickup them within the split second time before the assault.

    What put me to write this muse was I was watching a channel five series ‘ Police code Zero officers under attack’, assaults on Police officers seen from the body camera’s so one is seeing it as you would be seeing it and it also includes the noise, the shouting etc. that watching CCTV does not give. Episode 2 session 3, shows a kick in the groin @ 25mins.10 secs; it shows it in real time and then again in slow time. What spurred me to mention it is to show the immense difficulty in recognising the ‘indicators’ when there is no accumulation ( slow fuse) and the assault happens in a split second.
     
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  2. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I think it can be difficult to see, but the position of the Police is perhaps different in that they are often playing catch-up. By the time they are involved a situation may already have blown up, or, because they are the police, they are a target without usual attack indicators.

    I'm sure it does happen to members of the general public too, and some predators are good at verbally disarming victims.
     
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  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think almost anything in the realm of self defence and human violence is prone to exceptions and outliers and stuff outside the norm.
    We are only ever trying to stack the odds in our favour. Go with what is most likely and hope for the best. There are no real absolutes (although someone will probably be able to mention a few).
    Pre-threat cues and attack indicators certainly exist and can be picked up on if they are present and you are aware.
    Head nodding, splaying arms, single syllable dialogue, scanning for witnesses, concealed hands, reaching for a pocket, distance close down, clenching fists, pulling the shoulder back, etc etc.
    Some may happen minutes before an attack and some split seconds. Some may happen but no attack follow (the attacker gets what they want or they were bluffing).
    But some people are good at covering up their intent and having a good "poker face". So attack cues might be very slight or non-existent.
    I mean that's exactly what we would be trying to do by using the fence, asking a distracting question/action trigger and pre-emptively striking right? Hitting while our attacker's mental defences are down with as few "tells" or cues as possible.
    And this is exactly what the police face too. Suspects who are willing to play passive while waiting for their chance to attack.
    I'd argue that the whole process of arresting someone is a pre-attack cue in and of itself.

    I was walking down Union Street in Plymouth one night and some guy got ejected from a club and then walked up the street in front me. Another guy is walking in the opposite direction and the ejected guy just punched him full in the face and ran off. Broken nose, blood everywhere. Horrible. No dialogue, no pre-amble, no set up, no attack cues. He was just angry at being chucked out and punched the first target he saw. His victim was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. 30 seconds later and it could have been me.
     
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  4. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Near where I live, we often have instances of people being suddenly shoved in front of subway trains, usually by people with mental issues. No warning, just walk by and push you into the tracks and you're dead unless you're very lucky. These attacks are often caught on CCTV cameras and I've seen a few. Hard to believe most people would ever be aware or ready for that, a lot of these are commuters just heading to or from work, barely had their first coffee and it was their last.

    Needless to say whenever I take the train or subway these days, I'm eyeballing everyone around me. So maybe I'm the one giving off indicators.
     
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah seen some of those videos. Nasty.
    Only advice I think you can give there is to stand well away from the edge until the train is next to the platform. Don't get into a position where a shove, even an innocent accidental bump, could propel you onto the tracks.
     
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  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    To use a poor analogy,

    Some car crashes can be prevented by using road awareness, some can't, either way paying attention to the road is a good idea.

    See also, vaccines / good diet / cardio / strength work etc are all like air bags and seatbelts, not everyone always benefits from them, but it's still a good idea to do for the entire population.

    Fun bit of historical context.
     
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  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think it's an apt analogy. Just because something can be circumvented or sometimes ineffective doesn't mean they are a waste of time.
     
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  8. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Spent a lot of time in State Government and Hospital security.... all I can say is how I dealt with things....
    1) They never called me to introduce me to some great person they wanted me to meet, so I was on guard as soon as I walked in
    2) I viewed it as every single person I confronted was there to lie to me, cause me or someone else harm or all of the above
    3) Alway expecting an attack, basically the pre-attack indicator was I showed up and they were there
    4) Distance matters, stay out of kicking and punching range until there was no other choice, then move and move fast
    5) Know I was not there to make friends, I could attempt talk them out of, or intimidate them out of, what they may or may not be thinking, but not be pals. (this did work by the way)

    At one hospital, that had a mental health and detox unit (And dealt with prisoners from local jails) I had 60 confrontations in 90 days, to varying levels of violence. Was I ever taken by surprise? Yes, but then it is hard to predict when a person brought in on a mental health warrant is going to pick up the little stainless steel trash can and throw it at your head (luckily I ducked and they missed). Also heroin addicts in need of a fix are INCREDIBLY unpredictable. But I was not seriously injured, nor was any of the staff I worked with. And yes, I do believe much of that was luck as well as going in expecting a violent encounter. However I was very happy when it was resolved by talking or simply by me showing up,
     
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  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Would really like to hear what kind of stuff you found effective, what your go-to approach was, what failed, etc?
    That sounds horrible to deal with but also a lot of experience to draw from.
     
  10. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Joint locks, holds, blocks, takedowns, walls (bounced a couple off the wall), sometimes acting like a wall. Went to ground only once (meaning not just a takedown, a bit of wrestling involved). Most, once they hit the ground stopped cold and got really cooperative worked pretty good. The concept from Japanese Jujutsu and from taijiquan and using their force against them. Basically the come straight at you, get out of the way and redirect them. But mostly, and surprisingly, giving them the impression nothing they did was all that impressive. It tended to derail some when they start threatening and you responded as if you were bored with the whole thing. But to be honest I can single out any one thing that worked, or was my go to. Things changed as the confrontation changed. Some you could talk out of it, basically redirect where they wanted to go others you had to do what you had to do.

    Had one guy, there on a mental health warrant, he was a bit combative, I was expecting a fight... then he look me straight in the eyes and say "I like you, but the voices are telling me to kill you". I looked back and calmly said "do me a favor, don't listen to the voices.... I don't want you to try and kill me, and you don't want me to throw you on the floor".... he responded with..."I like you, you remind of my father" he then sat down and was not a problem the rest of the night. Had a bleeding Heroin addict come at me and all I did was be a wall. Luckily the the bother was there who jumped in and helped get hi back to teh room. This was by the way during the whole fear of aids thing....I really did not want to wrestle a bleeding, IV drug using, heroin addict

    None of these were anything like standing in a ring, or sparing, and squaring off. And I really could not get overly excessive, could not initiate the attack, and punches and kicks were not really an option in that job. Had a few punches thrown at me and a kick or two, but blocking, occasional joint lock and distance is what i pretty much had to try my best to use. Restraint was the first option. There were still guidelines I had to follow, if I wanted to stay employed and not get sued.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2022
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  11. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    NOTE: I should add luck had a lot to do with it too. Had a pro-wrestler come in on night, this was near the wrestling hall of fame. He was huge and on something. He was out of the room when I walked into the ER. He saw me and put his head down and ran straight at me, I don't know why, but I side stepped, caught his foot, and he went face down on the floor. We got him up, helped him back to the room, and luckily he was not a problem the rest of the evening. I really did not want to wrestle with him, it was the one time I was pretty sure I'd lose.
     
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