Practicality of "movie" technqiues

The issue here is, I have already moved passed the "flashy move" thing, Yet you are still on that topic, thus causing a mis-understanding. You're clearly still on Flashy moves, where I have moved onto the "practicallity and effectiveness" of Capoeira as a whole; and thus one would need to know I'm qualified to utter as I have, and am not a weekend warrior so to speak.

Now, Capoeira spends a lot of time on the ground, or in a low stance. Note: A LOT, not ALL. And using techniques/strategy/tricks in the lowered stance is throughly taught in Capoeira. This is not assumption, this is plain observation. Maybe your club is different from the populus. But there is not hiding the ground work.

Your statement of "learn more about people" can only be interpreted as "I think you're ignorant". And is thus a presumtuous and arrogant statement. You may fail to acknowledge this, but it's plain and simple in "black and blue".

Now me learning more about the human psychy has nothing to with my generalization of Capoeira only being Flashy kicks. If it does, please fill me in on how learning about people changes that statement.

Now I've long accepted that Capoeira is not only flashy kicks since my initial post. But that post within itself was on over exaduration of the truth behind Cap. So please move on from that initial post.

I don't recall asking you to be specific, as this whole conversation has been you stating that the flashy kicks arguement is an over generalization; which as said before, has been acknowledged.

As I said, I no longer have tyes with the school, and during my training time, I cared more about actual techniques rather than the politics behind it all. So based on the names I gave you earlier, you can conduct your own research.

"It seems to me like you spent nearly two years in a contemporanea school where you got your info on regional and angola from them (and perhaps from visiting the schools/rodas of a couple other groups) and went from there. You find capoeira not to be a fit for your (or anyone's) pursuit of fighting and that's fine. Just don't make claims that aren't true." - Well it is true that I trained two years in what appears to be a contemporanea school. And yes, you can open those brackets, I find Capoeira needs modification of it's raw state inorder to become a useable MA. But I find that you held onto the Flashy kicks arguement for too long, when I have long moved passed it.

 

Ok so what I'm getting from you all, is that people only train in Capoeira (modern capoeira), or flashy kicks, not for anything relating to realism or fighting, but instead to look cool, or to fullfil cultural passions?

 

Good luck in tkd Oh. And talk to mitch.

 

What you SHOULD be getting from all this is that people's reasons for training are as different as people themselves. A bald Brazilian dude with an upper arm the size of average man's calf is probably training for a different reasons than a six-year-old girl who just really likes to do cartwheels - and yet you can meet both in the same class.

For some it is culture/history thing, for some it is a workout, for some it is a viable fighting system, for some it is probably a chance to get it going with a hot chick. Other reasons, as well as combinations of the above, aren't out of the question either.

Ultimately you are going into capoeira to learn to play capoeira - whatever else you get from it pretty much depends on what you make of it.

On to the other stuff.

Precisely what I was saying. And it's not that someone decided "okay, now we kick his ass," it's that people were simply adjusting to the way my game was changing until one day I realized hey, it's gotten pretty freaking rough. I hardly noticed the progression, save that the moves were getting easier, until I started to compare video clips.

Again - this is how it is, this is how it should be. "The stronger player protects the weaker" was right there in the rules of Mestre Bimba's academy (he also had one about acrobatic jumps leaving you vulnerable, something I'm sure you can appreciate).
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AHAHAHAHAHA! Oh brother...

There is a large pet peeve for me here that I won't go into but let me tell you this - if anything, kids have far fewer hang-ups about going at it hard than adults do. I personally don't have a problem with letting them scrap for a bit as long as there is someone around to supervise them and step in if it gets out of hand.

Now we DO have a separate class for kids – but I'll be damned if they need any external incentive.

Hah, I should be so lucky. When I first saw myself on video I was this close to just canning the whole thing altogether. When I thought I was getting the hang of the stuff, a visiting higher grade showed me serious flaws in my technique. My game literally improved over a weekend, though I couldn't walk a flight of stairs without whining for the following five days. I'm in no danger of being conceited any time soon.

The big thing about acrobatics in capoeira is that you CAN BE ATTACKED while performing them. This isn't always the case but it is a distinct possibility and should be always borne in mind while performing or watching them. Once you get that you realize that THE ENTIRE POINT of those acrobatics is to be flashy and ineffective - you are taking a calculated risk by performing them but if you can pull it off you will end up looking all the more impressive.

I will admit that they are often over-used and people engaging in elaborate acrobatic displays often take the edge off the game. And nobody argued that doing a hand-spin in a real fight would be anything other than stupid. But that is the game of capoeira for you - hand-spins, back-flips and large swooshing spinning kicks can give way to palm strikes, direct kicks, knees, head-butts, sweeps and take-downs without missing a beat.

Not formally, no. My uncle taught me the basics of boxing (really basic stuff but I found it a good fall-back on several occasions) and I've picked up some stuff off buddies who did one MA or another. Come to think about it , it's pretty strange that I lasted this long without training in anything seriously.

See, this was pretty much my perspective as well. I distinctly remember telling someone that I didn't expect much in the way of martial applications. So it wasn't a matter of my expectations being fulfilled so much as it was a matter of my preconceptions being challenged and pretty much taken apart.

About the music thing - I'm probably not going to convince you but it's the single best energizer I've ever experienced. Once people really get into the clapping and the chanting the roda can go on for hours at a rapid pace and only once it is over do people realize just how fatigued they are. This is my experience anyway, so take it for what you will.

Sigh... I really should know better than to argue on the Internet but this is what being away from training does to me.

 

Nope. Some people do train capoeira to improve their ability at fighting, too. Many train for a combination of the reasons you listed, with or without the added desire to develop some sort of martial prowess.

Many who do train, find their reasons for training changing as they progress, too. For instance, I was initially drawn by many of the cultural elements and what I felt was an enjoyable atmosphere around learning capoeira. Over the years, I also feel that I have gained some degree of martial development. I have certainly gained in terms of strength, conditioning and flexibility as well.

paz,

dormindo

 

Off topic even more than the rest, but I find it interesting that L_G - a TKD guy - keeps bringing up MT into the debate. I mean I'm not gonna argue against its effectiveness (and I sure as heck won't do it to any Thai boxer's face) but what about your own art, L_G?

For the record, I have no quarrel with TKD either - as luck would have it, my instructor comes from a TKD background and he can kick like a horse - but it is interesting all the same.

 

Yeh you're right, it is interesting. But I also have some training in Muay Thai, I use it as a sparring portal.

But the main reason that I use Muay Thai is for comparison reasons. As far as martial arts go, Muay Thai is one of the arts that is almost purely martial based, which I find almost opposit to Capoeira. I would use TKD, but many people have many different ideas of what TKD is, and the various schools/federations in which TKD is run under doesn't rlly help these assumptions. So some people may think of it as just a sport (WTF), or of the ridiculous "sine wave" (ITF), or that it's just a traditional MA. Muay Thai has far less assumptions.

For the record I find TKD to actually be one of the most expansive modern MA's (with regard to shear number of techniques) and only rlly second to it's cousin style Hapkido.

 

Opening a book on where this thread ends... any takers? Sweet Christ. :bang:

 

"What you SHOULD be getting from all this is that people's reasons for training are as different as people themselves. A bald Brazilian dude with an upper arm the size of average man's calf is probably training for a different reasons than a six-year-old girl who just really likes to do cartwheels - and yet you can meet both in the same class.

For some it is culture/history thing, for some it is a workout, for some it is a viable fighting system, for some it is probably a chance to get it going with a hot chick. Other reasons, as well as combinations of the above, aren't out of the question either.

Ultimately you are going into capoeira to learn to play capoeira - whatever else you get from it pretty much depends on what you make of it."

Clearly "looking cool and fulfilling cultural passions" aren't "other reasons for training"? Cognitive dissonance much?

I am vary well aware of having various other reasons for training in MA's, and that these reasons have a tendancy for training in MAs. Me personally I wanted to be like Jackie Chan and Jet Li But the more I got into MA's I developed into a "martialist" and not into an "artist".

I suppose I should have formatted my question like this; In a "martial" context, what worth is there in training in Capoeira, as there seems to be some weaknesses in the techniques of Capoeira? But I ask you from refraining to answer this question because its more a topic for a new thread.

"AHAHAHAHAHA! Oh brother...

There is a large pet peeve for me here that I won't go into but let me tell you this - if anything, kids have far fewer hang-ups about going at it hard than adults do. I personally don't have a problem with letting them scrap for a bit as long as there is someone around to supervise them and step in if it gets out of hand.

Now we DO have a separate class for kids – but I'll be damned if they need any external incentive."

I was addressing a moral/ethical point, not rlly what the kids wish to do.

"See, this was pretty much my perspective as well. I distinctly remember telling someone that I didn't expect much in the way of martial applications. So it wasn't a matter of my expectations being fulfilled so much as it was a matter of my preconceptions being challenged and pretty much taken apart."

Well there you have it. The "difference in our experiences" is not so much the actual experience of training, but the difference in our pre/post cognition of the experience.

"About the music thing - I'm probably not going to convince you but it's the single best energizer I've ever experienced. Once people really get into the clapping and the chanting the roda can go on for hours at a rapid pace and only once it is over do people realize just how fatigued they are. This is my experience anyway, so take it for what you will.

Sigh... I really should know better than to argue on the Internet but this is what being away from training does to me."

Well really, I don't see how this is an advantage, or useful in anyway. If you aren't efficient without music what good are you in a SD situation (not aimed at you specifically mate)? Remember, I'm talking about martiallity.

 

Gotta say I'm starting to run out of steam here. Whatever points I could have made have been made already and I feel like I'll be just rehashing the same stuff over and over again.

I'm not going to convince you, L_G, and that's fine by me. If anything, I had a chance develop a few thoughts bouncing around my head in clear legible writing and I thank you for that opportunity. You've at least gave it a try and if capoeira isn't for you then there is precious little to be done about it.

Shame about your batizado though - more often than not, that's where REAL fun begins.

On that note, I'm off.

 

Remember, ladies and gents, I'm a man of my word. I'm also easily baited.

Dude. For all I care someone can train in cap to help their digestion; the reasons for doing it are immaterial compared to how they play in the roda.

"Art" in "martial art" for me is first and foremost about individual expression; preference in techniques, subtle differences in execution, different set-ups and follow-ups, stuff like that. It has sod all to do with how "pretty" the moves are or how "martial" the pep-talk is. You keep bringing up Thai boxing, fine - find me two Thai boxers who move exactly the same. Or boxers for that matter, since the pool of techniques to choose from is even smaller.

There are "some weaknesses" in each and every technique known to man. Exploiting them to your advantage kinda seems to be the whole point of fighting. And believe me, capoeiristas are well aware of weaknesses in their techniques - exploiting them to your advantage is what the game is all about.

I'd rather kids saw someone get hit in class and learned that it's scary, it hurts and that there are often serious consequences than saw someone get hit on TV with these factors glossed over. On another tangent, I hate it when people turn kids into shrinking violets - they are often far less squeamish and far more resilient than people give them credit for and these qualities should be encouraged, not smothered in the bud.

Whatever that was supposed to mean. :roll:

All I've said was that I didn't expect to learn anything useful and I got a lot that was useful, including taking a few knocks and learning it's not so bad and I can roll with it. I dunno about you but that counts for a lot in my book when it comes to that whole "fighting" thing.

The techniques I use in the roda work just as well whether there is music playing or not. If you seriosuly think I need a berimbau playing to knee someone in the gut you've got another thing coming.

You know, this kinda reminds me of what happens in the roda sometimes - one guy makes like he's about to shake hands and end the game, the other buys it, steps with his arm extended and gets a bencao in the gut for it. Well played, sir, well played - but I'm really done here.

 

Double post again, Christ almighty...

 

@ Rand86

I got objections still, but Imma stop this. I've got completely different ideas to you, n vice versa true as well. There are also some mis-understandings and presumptions taking place here. And I also believe Slipthejab is subtlely telling us to "shut up" . We've hijacked poor jasonjason's thread for too long.

 

I think Capoeira is flashy and very pretty. I also got a lot of info from Dormindo (thank you lovely) and i watched the videos. I know its supposed to look like a dance with music. and I know why is it. And like Lad Gorg, I had trouble finding the MA part of it. Probably cause they're meant to be hidden (so slave owners wouldn't notice) I just found it to be very pretty. especially with the flowey grass skirts at the batizado i saw in the video and that Berimbau (spelling?) music instrument.

 

One last thing and then I'm really done here - L_G, I just this moment noticed you saying that you wanted to do some "TKD vs. Capoeira" sparring but refrained from doing so out of "respect" for the art; since I know for a fact that guys from my group often went out of their way to train/spar with people from other styles (and there is quite a bit of footage of such things happening online) you needn't have bothered with the courtesy; if you went ahead and asked you would have probably found at least several people willing to accomodate you. Most guys I've met are in fact pretty good sports about being schooled every now and again - hard to be otherwise when it happens just about everytime you play, lol.

Don't bother responding since I've already put you on "Ignore" but know that unwillingness to spar outside its own boundaries is not a claim you can lay at the doors of "capoeira" as a whole. Quite frankly, I find it disrespectful to even presume such a thing without verifying it.

 

Fighting people outsideyour martial art seems interesting though. Like if I fought an orange belt in judo (I'm also orange belt in shotokan), you'd see the flaws in our arts. Cause judo don't kick and punch like we do so he/she'd be at a disadvantage, and I would too, because we don't learn grappling in Shotokan. It would sometimes be interesting to see tkd fight capoeira, karate fight muay thai, and so on.

 

I do believe that it has been done before.

My connection is pretty slow at the moment but once I get back onto something faster I'll dig up some of the stuff I have saved on my YT account and throw it up here. Not all of it is stellar and some of it had the cap guys making mistakes my instructor would have chewed my head off for - but it's out there.

My main beef with L_G was that he HASN'T done it when he had the chance - if his idea of "respect" is forgoing a chance to spar with the practitioners and then pooping all over the art online (he was kinda subtle about it but it was still pretty evident) then I can live without such respect, thank you very much.

Personally, I'd love to do some sparring with people from other backgrounds - though probably not any time soon. And it's a crying shame that roninmaster's thread over in the MMA subsection seems to be dead and buried. Oh well...

 

I'd love to watch your videos.

 

Oh, they're not "mine" - they're just some stuff I found lying around. My single foray so far into what may charitably be called "cross-sparring" ended with me being headlocked, thrown and mounted, though fortunately the guy didn't have a whole lot of clue what to do once he got there and fell off as soon as I started struggling. :lol: But yes, they're interesting if nothing else.

 

Okay.

This may be a good time to clarify that, for all that I'm running my mouth around here like I know what the heck I'm talking about, I'm still a newbie at the art. A very vocal opinionated newbie, mind, but a newbie nonetheless; I'm sure that dormindo for one shook his head and muttered to himself about how arrogant the young' uns are these days when reading some of my posts, even if he seems like too nice a guy to say anything out loud.

But if my perception of some things in these clips changes it probably won't be for the better. A lot of this stuff are things I was already told (repeatedly and sometimes rather loudly; I can be pretty dense) not to do. If anything, this write-up will hopefully be as much a learning experience for me as an entertaining diversion for those who may be bothered to read it.

Also, many groups do many things slightly differently in terms of execution and even the techniques used; someone who's been around the block more than me might shed some more light on the subject. But there are small differences and then there is the stuff that is common because, well, it's common sense.

Anyway...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qln30-aPYLA"]Mix Capo vs vale todo.wmv - YouTube[/ame]

Ahhh, Elite Carioca... I've mixed feelings about this group, honestly. On the one hand they trade some heavy shots and aren't afraid to mix it up. On the other, hands low, chins high, skipping around like the ground is burning their feet. One thing that soured me considerably to them is LEAVING THEIR NECKS EXTENDED while going for the vingativa (the overleg trip thingy) as this is precisely what got me thrown in my single "cross-sparring" fiasco so far. Accordingly, the other dude is slapping guillotines and RNCs on them left, right and center. Quite frankly, I was more impressed with him than any of the capoeiristas - looks like he took on three guys by himself and schooled each and every one of them; THAT takes some serious guts. Also, I actually hold my hands a lot like him while playing in close. So I'm inclined to like him a lot. Except for the haircut, that is; that has to go.

The more combative elements of EC appear to have since split into another group, Yawaresa. I actually like their stuff a lot more.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uerCDPvkxw"]Yawaresa 2009 - YouTube[/ame].

NEXT!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb4xknX-qmA"]capoeira vs karate (demonstration) - YouTube[/ame]

Don't bother telling me the karate guy is crap because, quite frankly, I can see that for myself; I think I threw better kicks in schoolyard tussles and all I knew about kicking back then I learned from JCVD movies. But the capoeirista isn't all that great either - for one his ginga looks pretty stiff; there should be a whole lot more head and body movement going on. It is also pretty... static? Or at least stationary. This is IMO a deal maker or breaker when it comes to ginga - it is not a "stance" but a moving platform from which you launch the attacks while being ready to move, evade or even block and parry if the necessity arrives. Shuffling your feet on the spot doesn't get you anywhere (geddit? Hehehe... hey, why's everybody leaving?!).

... and yes, people sometimes block and parry in capoeira as well. Blocking a kick with the hands beats blocking it with the face by a mile. But I digress...

What I like - and I mean really, REALLY like - are his take-downs. Quick entry, maybe a little bit of struggle (ideally there shouldn't be any. But "ideal" isn't a synonym for "common" for a reason), down goes the other dude. And I absolutely adore the bit at 5:35 where the karate guy throws a tornado kick, capoeirista responds with one of his own (coming, you may notice, much closer to connecting than the other dude ever did), karateka gets his hackles up and tries again - and winds up on his bum. A glorious display of capoeira trickery, and the other guy fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

It probably helps my perception that it looks like two buddies messing around and no-one mentions being a "fighting" capoeirista. Oh, and I have no clue why they're not using their hands to strike - might have been a prearranged agreement to avoid messing each other up too badly. Like I said, it looks like two guys having a bit of fun.

NEXT!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_5N0B0KSyo"]kickboxing vs capoeira MMA rules - YouTube[/ame]

Ooooh - getting competitive, are we? Not much to say here, except that the capoeirista seems to do a fair job of fighting from guard early on; but whatever brownie points that gets him are then promptly taken away due to atrociously giving up his back at 1:10. Still, he seems to heed his trainer's advice to keep his chin tucked and the RNC attempt doesn't seem to go anywhere except right back up. Nice kicks but I'd definitely like to see some more hand action. But that's just me.

NEXT!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0KfQE2-ZqA"]Official Crazy 20 second Capoeira MMA Knock Out in HD Best Quality - YouTube[/ame]

No way was I gonna leave that one out. Actually I remember seeing this one before taking up cap and thinking what probably everyone else did, that it was a fluke - spectacular, sure, but a fluke nonetheless. Now, with some training under my belt what impresses me the most is how Lelo controls the other guy's movements - he pretty much runs him around the ring as he pleases until he has him where he wants him which is with his back to the ropes where the dude can do nothing but cower as the heel whizzes past his face. Can't say that I blame him. Backing away like that is actually a big no-no in capoeira - if you can do nothing else, sure, otherwise it's better to either close in rapidly or duck under and go from there. "Cornering" an opponent is also a big part of the game and it is made even more difficult as, obviously, there are no corners in the roda. So even if it was a fluke, it seemed to be at least a well-planned one. Amazing how lucky some people get, eh?

It is actually quite interesting just how much control one can develop in this kick with diligent practice over a relatively short period of time. If you look closely, you will notice that Lelo doesn't even wobble - he recovers from the missed kick perfectly and only falls down from the kick that connected with the other dude's head; at which point, it frankly mattered little what he did anyway. Not that mine is quite as smooth as his obviously but still - if you want me to fall down you're gonna have to come over and do something about it.

And here's a nice little clip that nearly made me leap out of my chair:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n35Y7N6SkUs&feature=player_detailpage#t=368s

It might be difficult to notice but the dude throwing the kick is being swept and he still recovers and goes straight into the shoot. Actually the whole clip is eminently worth watching.

NEXT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEbl4jehkfI&feature=player_detailpage#t=210s

(skipped a bit with the guys warming up)

WHOA! That's almost Lateef Crowder in "Undisputed 3" kinda stuff, except live and not choreographed. I've never heard either of the guy or the group but I found the clip last evening and my jaw literally dropped - lots of stuff flying both ways, some great take-downs on the part of the capoeira dude and I swear he sneaks in a head-butt at around 6 minute marks which endears me to him greatly. Also notice that when the guys shout "Ginga!" he starts moving not dancing on the spot. I think I really like him.

Aaand finally...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMLoHTf7OKM"]Marcus Vinicios vs John Hall NFC 7 - YouTube[/ame]

Marcus Vinicios is the brother of Lelo, i. e. "20-seconds K.O." guy. I actually like him far more because his opponents at least look like they know what they're doing. This particular fight was ruled a "no contest" - he actually has three of them, for a total record of 5-6-0, and I just wanted to highlight that if the other two are anything like this one I wouldn't put any stock in what it says on paper. Here he pretty much dominates at range and does a great job of fighting from the clinch. At one point Hall has him in a headlock and you can see him preparing the "vingativa" trip I've mentioned before. And the finishing salvo of knees and elbows was almost unbearable to watch. Shame about that downward elbow but hey - nobody's perfect.

... this would be the place to mention that my second name is "Nobody" but some jokes are too crude even for my tastes. Anyway...

I know what everyone's probably thinking and I can't say I blame you. If anyone's interested in seeing me in action though, I'd prefer them to contact me over a P. M. - my school does not like its clips paraded in public and I really wouldn't like to get in trouble. Also they are from before the fateful weekend and, quite frankly, I cringe watching them myself. So maybe we can postpone the lynching until I got something better to show.

Again, the disclaimer applies - these are all ramblings of a guy with just a year's worth of training. I fully expect to come across this post at some later date and think I should have taken a cold shower before throwing it out there. But hey, it never stopped me before.