Practical or Not Practical

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Shou Tu, Mar 12, 2004.

  1. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    every art teaches things that the beginner feels are not practical at that level. But I notice students that dont really pay attention to the art that they are learning, gathering all the information they can and applying it to what they have learned to make the pie whole. Following me yet. at the same time as they advance through material , applying what they thought was impractical earlier to it and seeing if that is what makes it practical.

    Alot of times an art teaches you things that you dont realize are there till reach a certian level and then you look back and BAM it was there the whole time, just you werent at a level of knowledge to fully recognize it.

    Now the Question,

    Have you ever taken a MA regardless of origin and thought what they were teaching you impractical? but didnt stick around long enough to learn if its not practical or you just havent learned enough to make that judgement?

    something to ponder.

    Last edited: Mar 13, 2004
  2. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    Can you say "Jeet Kune Do"?

    "keep what's useful; reject the rest"

    I may be (surely am!) wrong to generalise but I have an image of a JKDer as someone who needs instant gratification/results.

    It's the long winding road for me. Sometimes, I can't see far forwards because of a bend in the road or I may be in a hollow. Then I get times when the road goes high and I can see for miles in every direction.

  3. dragon_bunny

    dragon_bunny Valued Member

    i did try to take up taekwondo with my friend at Uni (he wanted to meet girls i wanted to fight) but i couldn't hack the teacher insisting on me calling him master and making me say thank you to him everytime he showed me a new technique.. not that i'm not polite i do call my ninjutsu teacher sensi but some how teacher sound better than master and i generally feel people should earn my thanks not force it from me...
    yes i know it has nothing to do with impractical techniques but it was an impractical enviroment for me!
  4. El Tejon

    El Tejon MAP'scrazyuncle

    I believe this describes everyone who "studies" a martial art for 6 months and then writes about how "impractical" it is because they did not master it. :rolleyes: As David said, they want to be 20 year veterans in 2 weeks.

    I see this a lot with Wing Chun. They only know Siu Lim Tao and then "review" Wing Chun. This is akin to learning "A to G" in the alphabet then "reviewing" the English language. :D

    One should remember that you never stop training and the more you train the more the different arts seem to appear the same. :)
  5. kez

    kez New Member

    does it really matter if what u learn is practical or not? i believe that most MA's r are taught in order to reach a more important goal. disciplin, strength, and so forth. If so, it couldn't matter less, if one or two things we learn arn't practical- since we didn't cum to learn one or two things- we cum to learn an intire fighting style, and way of life.
  6. Adam

    Adam New Member

    The aims of the individual martial artists differ Kez. Some people want to learn a way of life, others aren't interested in the background or philosophy of the art and want pure fight training. Myself, I like the mental aspect, but the "way of life" aspect should never be more important than the fact that martial arts were designed for fighting, in my humble opinion.
  7. kez

    kez New Member

    Th@ doesn't change the fact that if u r learning a MA- u r learing the whole style. u r learning 2 think like a fighter and have good reflexes- it's the whole picture u eventualy gain, not one or 2, unpractical things.
  8. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    If you don't get practical skills in six're probably learning crap.
  9. Tireces

    Tireces New Member

    We are. The idea is that one that starts off impractical isn't going to just shoot light years ahead of the practical technique if you put the same training into both, which seems to be an odd mindset some people have.
  10. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Or at least the teaching structure and methods are crap.

    At the end of the day I think that it's a sign of a poor teacher or a badly structed school or system that teaches anything that seems impractical (with the possible exception of certain exercises). But techniques should never be impractical when they are taught. I have a lot of problem with systems that teach "do this a certain way and you'll get the application when you're ready." If the material that is being taught is to esoteric for the experience level of a practitioner, then it shouldn't be taught to them.

    - Matt
  11. TKD

    TKD New Member

    I kinda have to disagree with that philosiphy. Under that principle, say a reverse hook kick-for the sake of using an example-would be impractical, always! We all know it's not impractical, however, to someone who's just starting to learn it, it can be very difficult and the application can seem extremely impractical at that point in time. An example of what someone might say when they are trying to learn the kick and think it impractical might be, "Why would I ever want to spin towards my back and lose sight of my opponent for a second to hit them, when I can just turning kick them and be done with it." The answer is, because we can't always throw a turning kick just because it's easier, we must be able to use a variety of techniques to surprise our opponent/s, the reverse hook kick is one of those techniques. While this answer may make complete sense to you now, it probably would not have made as much sense when you were say a white or yellow belt just beginning to learn the reverse hook kick. That scenario would be very amplified-for lack of a better word-if you were only learning with other people of similar rank as you would more than likely be hitting at least 70% of the time when you did use only a turning kick. Using what you stated Matt, a great many people would never get better at the martial arts, because, how can you get better if you never push yourself. Pushing yourself means learning something new and difficult, and when something is difficult in the martial arts that usually means you can't do it very well, and if you can't do it very well you may think it impractical because it is too difficult for you to perform under pressure. However, with practice and time you will soon become better at it and what once was difficult and impractical is now easy and useful but had you never been pushed and taught that "impractical" technique you wouldn't be any better a year down the road and the reverse hook kick would still be........ "impractical". Thus we learn that the "do this a certain way and you'll get the application when you're ready" technique is actually very important. :eek:
  12. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    It *IS* impractical!

    It doesn't make sense now. Never turn your back to your enemy. Anyone knows that.

    Spinning kicks are an easy ticket to a rear naked choke.

    Look, how much simpler does it need to get? If you can't use the technique immediately there's probably a reason for that. The straight blast gym's method (and before everyone's all OMG NUTRIDING, I have never bought from or trained at the SBG) allows a technique to be taught, isolated, then integrated into sparring in the span of one class!
  13. Poop-Loops

    Poop-Loops Banned Banned

    I have to disagree with that part a bit. You didn't learn how to ride a bike or swim immediatly, did you? Sometimes you just need to get the timing or technique down right for something to work. That doesn't immediatly make it impracticle.

  14. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Cool... debate time...

    My question is then why teach it at White or Yellow? (I should note that in our system the hook kick is a second level technique. Spinning, while introduced at the second level, isn't something that students aren't accountable for until the third level.) While I agree that it's good to challenge students, I think it makes far more sense to drill the heck out of the basic techniques. Reverse hook kick isn't a basic technique (from my perspective). It's a compund technique. And it's not necessary for a beginner to be successful in sparring or in a self defense situation. Therefore, I would hold off on encorporating it until the stundent is at a point where they can appreciate and access compound techniques.

    Not to be dense, but I don't understand what you're getting at with that.

    Hate to say it TKD but that makes no sense to me. Pushing one's self has nothing to do with bredth of technique. It's all about depth. By this type of logic, MAists would far excel boxers in every respect because we have exponentially more techniques to learn than they do. To take a page out of Hedgehogie's book, the real "push" comes from training your base techniques in "alive" scenarios and sparring. While I love my hook kick (And my spin hook) I spent a good three years working my basic front and side kicks (without spinning) and could hold my own with them. And I've been beaten by people only using a reverse punch. Their limited amount of techniques didn't seem to effect them.

    Note, none of this is to say that the reverse hook kick is impractical. There's always a situation where it might fit. But I really don't think it is a technique that should be taught to beginners.

    I'm not against the idea of working and banging on a technique to make it yours. However, I'm a firm believer that there are logical progressions to learning techniques. And holding a compound technique until someone has a firm understanding of it's fundimental building blocks is part of that progression.

    I look forward to your thoughts.

    - Matt
  15. TKD

    TKD New Member

    You can teach them all the basics you want, you can teach them all the spins you want. When it comes down to it, combining those spins and basics will never be easy to start with, and it will never be replicated by any other movement. Nothing you do will perfect a technique other than actually doing that technique.
    Yet again, what is that point, it's never gonna be easy and just happen, you have to work for every inch.

    I was simply trying to state(obviously not very clearly) that the person would find the technique even more "impractical" if in their experience they "scored" 70% percent of the time with a turning kick anyway.

    I disagree, I think the "push" means making yourself do something your not good at or not comfortable with.

    I completely agree. I'm not talking about teaching it to someone as their very first technique.

    I also agree here, but like I said I don't think all the practice in the world on basics will make you good at the advanced stuff.

    As do I.
  16. Chilu

    Chilu Banned Banned

    Wow, someone nutriding about something BESIDES the Gracies! :D
    (note sarcasm, I know BJJ is GREAT, it's a joke people!)

    If you are uncomfortable with a technique in practice, then why would you want to try it for real? If you don't like it, don't do it. If your art has too much you don't like, then maybe that art isn't for you. You should find an art that seems natural for you. Yes, pushing yourself is good, but not to learn techniques that seem unnatural and impractical.(note: that is if you are learning for SD, if not then ignore just about everything I post)
  17. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    -I believe that a lot of the problems arise from two factors: 1) the fact that many trad. systems arranged their practical application to be focused on after the student had proven their worthiness. 2) Due to the teaching of school children within the public schools, many of the combat applications were not focused on or altered so the kids would not hurt themselves or others. There is no reason why today we have to follow this syntax in the cirriculum, though.
    -I teach my students what they can apply effectively in the beginning and focus on that. I will also address the factors that they can't do effectively at this point and explain to them that it's like a farmer "planting seeds". Even though they can't use it very effectively at this point, the only way they will ever be able to do so is to get started on it. They spend roughly 90% of their training time on the things they can use now, though. The other 10% is a nice break for them and gives them something to work towards.
  18. TKD

    TKD New Member

    I don't mean uncomfortable with the idea of ever using that technique, I'm talking about uncomfortable with using it because of an inability at that point in time to use it efficiently. That is why they need to "push" themselves to use that particular technique in training, to learn the nuances of the movement and to learn when and how that particular technique can be applied effectively. And here again we get around to to the impracticality subject. Just because a technique seems unnatural and impractical does not mean it is, there is a time and place for everything. How stupid would you feel if you neglected practicing that one arm bar because you couldn't get it right right off the bat, so you labeled it impractical and unnatural, then 5 years later you get attacked on the street and, whoa..... Whaddya know, your stuck in that position you once tried to learn that arm bar from and you can't seem to get anything else to work from here. Just because you couldn't get it right away you thought it impractical and unnatural and now your paying for it, maybe you're even paying for it with your life this time.

    I'll just say that things are not always what they seem.

    Many martial arts are old, and those that are not are derived from those that are. When you, a noob, start a martial art and right away start saying your not going to do this or that because it takes too much time, you don't think you'll ever use it and it's too hard, it's kinda like walking into a burger joint for your first day on the job and saying your not going to cook the hamburger patties because you don't see the need for it, it just takes extra time. When a person starts a martial art they should do so with the understanding that they won't get why they are doing things the way they are right away. You can't learn something that's been forming for hundreds of years overnight. Those hundreds of years have seen the addition of many techniques because they were deemed necessary, they wouldn't throw it in there for the hell of it. Just because the reasoning behind it isn't instantly clear doesn't mean it's useless.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2004
  19. Chilu

    Chilu Banned Banned

    Firstly, I am not a "noob" at MA. Secondly, I was not talking about a submission or something that requires practice, I am talking about kicks and strikes. If they are too complicated and you don't feel comfortable with them, then just work on simple things. Sure grappling is more complicated, but I was talking about your example(reverse hook kick). I would never turn my back to an opponent(except to run) so I feel that any type of reverse kick would be impractical. Sure if you are skilled enough and YOU are the one attacking then it might work, but if you are suddenly attack from within 2 feet or behind or something, how will you get into a stance and then spin to kick? If someone trains for sparring, then fine. But on the street, I would not trust my life with a kick that puts me in danger by turning my back. Like someone said, that is begging for a rear naked choke.

    Is over a year and a half of practice enough? Or is that still instantly?
  20. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Supposing it was a logical progression from a missed Thai Thigh Kick where you've missed and use the momentum to follow through?

    No-ones suggested you need to prepare the technique by adopting a stance.

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