http://www.pa-kua.com/park.htm http://www.pa-kua.com/Books/books.htm Hwardo & NZRIC, If you have a chance, have a look in this book by Park Bok Nam, a Korean/ US based Bagua authority. In a chapter on Meditation & Qigong, he addresses the issue of “ dangerous aspects of qigong” …from Migraines, dizziness etc ( insanity is not specifically mentioned) It is suspiciously brief reference , but the term “ Dangerous” is definitely used, and therefore warrants further investgation. It is possible that he he deliberately ommitted going into specific detail wrt the nature of these “dangers’ as he prob anticipated the same ridicule I face in MAP. Basically he has done what I have…..alerted the reader to the dangers, without supplying sunbstantiating info. So it’s up to you to find out on your own if you are truly concerned. Another place to do further research is BK Franzis’s book , “ The Power of IMA”, where he talks about improper Qigong Most of my comments about Improper Qigong and Mental Health were relayed orally by my Taoist teachers, so it is not possible to supply substatiation here. Secondly, like I said, it’s not my job to prove anything to anyone. I provide the tip off, tell you as much as I know, it’s up to you to chase down the details. I merely shared what I know out of a sense of charity, but some know-it-alls in MAP have characterised that as “ drama queen demeanour and fear mongering ” Some have chosen to drag the level of debate down to the level of name calling, sacastic, uninformative rhetoric. It might be useful for the web savvy community to remember that just because something doesn’t exist on the net doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist at all. Much of Taoist knowledge is still transmitted orally, some recorded in private journals and circulated only to “closed door disciples”. The secrecy that shrouds these esoteric arts may be frustrating to people like you and me who are more used to Western openness and knowledge sharing. But if one considers Taoist history, Taoist secrecy has served it well for the last several hundred years. I try to Empty my Mind, not Close it. :love:
As a small example, in a Math Master's degree, Russian, French or German is a PREREQUISITE, not CoREQUISITE. That means you already had to have learnt these languages before applying for the degree. In TCM , you are learning Chinese at the same time as you learn TCM. Tell me that's not a learning impediment . And about translations, obviously you are not familiar with the concept of " Something lost in the Translation"
"...Migraines, dizziness etc ( insanity is not specifically mentioned) It is suspiciously brief reference , but the term “ Dangerous” is definitely used, and therefore warrants further investgation. It is possible that he he deliberately ommitted going into specific detail wrt the nature of these “dangers’ as he prob anticipated the same ridicule I face in MAP...." Let's get this right... it's written that holding your breath during strenuous exercise causes "migranes and dizziness" - which nobody would really argue with. But then you say the above point is mentioned "suspiciously briefly", therefore he must think it's extremely important, and that insanity is Not mentioned but you say the fact that it isn't mentioned means he secretly believes in it. Right. Good evidence.
Syd-- I actually have been considering going back to school for a masters in acupuncture and oriental medicine for a while now-- there is a program at a nearby college of chiropracty. I understand that this is what you are studying now. How has your study contributed to your martial arts practice and qigong? Is there a fair demand for acupuncturists in your neck of the world? Finally, how (in your neck of the woods) does a western masters in oriental medicine translate to real Chinese medical practice? Do you suppose a Chinese person would go to one of us? I'm aware that much of this depends on the program, and I also realize that you and I aren't exactly in the same school district either, but I am extremely curious-- this would be something along the lines of pursuing a life's dream for me, so... well, you know.
I don’t understand why it is so difficult for you to understand that I am not offering evidence here, or even trying to. What I am doing is to provide tip off information, it is up to you to ignore it, or if it arouses your interest sufficiently, pursue it on your own . I don’t exist to provide you or anyone proof. This is a forum of discussion, exchange of new ideas, not a court of law. The original thread invited comments from members, inquiring what people have heard about the dangers. Hwardo didn’t ASK FOR PROOF ! Hwardo wrote : “I am curious what other internal practioners on the forum have heard, experienced, or seen in regards to the potential dangers of incorrect qigong practice.” So far BK Franzis and Park Bok Nam have made references to the dangers of Improper Qigong. I am not the sole voice in the dark. On a separatenote, if proof is what you need before you accept it, then why even embrace the concept of Qi? Qi has only been felt in the body, there is known conclusive scientific proof of it’s existence. It’s presence has only been detected by indirect means ( temperature changes or electric current) It reminds me, growing up in the 60’s, the medical community use to say that there’s no direct proof / corrrelation between tobacco consumption and Lung Cancer. If you don’t believe this, I invite you to ask ANY doctor who was practising in the 60’s How far have we come. Was science wrong, or was it just inadequate at that point in time.
Just to clarify - I actually don't embrace the concept of chi. As I said in previous posts, I believe it's a combination of extraordinary body mechanics, meditation to refine the conscious control of usually unconscious body processes, and a healthy dose of self-hypnosis. Although I don't believe in the mystical side, I am totally committed to the internal arts because I can see the amazing things that can happen when you do practice it. Even though I know it's self-hypnosis, that doesn't stop me feeling the chi circulating. As for driving you insane - I don't mind whether or not you give evidence, but that's a dangerous viewpoint to make. It puts beginners off the art and also contributes to the stigma (and violence against) qigong practitioners in China - just look at the record the Chinese gov has against falun gong. If anybody has a viewpoint, we encourage them to give evidence. As you have seen, many of the members give helpful book reviews and recommend texts to others so they can delve more deeply into the subject. It's not a cross-examination, it's just showing that the subject is worth investigating. Like I said, if you were talking about a new variation of brush knee twist step, we wouldn't ask for substantial evidence, but if you say qigong drives you mad (or causes mental problems), you'd better have some good research behind you or we'll start thinking you've been spending too much time in Sung yourself.
NZRIC :Just to clarify - I actually don't embrace the concept of chi. As I said in previous posts, I believe it's a combination of extraordinary body mechanics, meditation to refine the conscious control of usually unconscious body processes, and a healthy dose of self-hypnosis. SC: Ah, so I misunderstand, I was under the impression that you were a big Chi proponent….in fact I thought you “ How to feel Chi “ posting was a most excellent one. But now that I’m clear on you position on Qi, I’ll know not to enter into discussions about this in the future….because we are not likely to agree. NZRIC :Although I don't believe in the mystical side, I am totally committed to the internal arts because I can see the amazing things that can happen when you do practice it. Even though I know it's self-hypnosis, that doesn't stop me feeling the chi circulating. SC: I can understand that, you feel it but can’t prove it. That’s kewl. NZRIC ::As for driving you insane - I don't mind whether or not you give evidence, but that's a dangerous viewpoint to make. It puts beginners off the art and also contributes to the stigma (and violence against) qigong practitioners in China - just look at the record the Chinese gov has against falun gong. SC: Again I think I have been misrepresented here. No where have I said Qigong cause insanity. I said Improper Qigong can sometimes cause Mental Issues. Other times it might have no side effect, other than the fact you would have wasted time and accumulated NO Qi , if the Qigong was done wrong. I don’t believe I’m causing hysteria with this warning. It’s like saying I’m causing hysteria if I warn people to do stretches / warmups before attempting Taekwondo for fear of injury. NZRIC :If anybody has a viewpoint, we encourage them to give evidence. As you have seen, many of the members give helpful book reviews and recommend texts to others so they can delve more deeply into the subject. It's not a cross-examination, it's just showing that the subject is worth investigating. SC: I agree. But I am trying to say there are instances where proof is not so readily shown because “ absence of proof in book or web form” does not mean “ Proof of Absence” Much of the “proof” comes from first hand observations from my Taoist masters…so what was I supposed to do…get them to write an affadavit, scan it and and post it on the internet only to have it derided by Forum skeptics ? Sounds like a thankless effort. I merely raised the issue, supported it by the fact 2 other wellknown authorities ( BK Franzis and Park Bok Nam) have also raised similar issues. Then I invited the forum readers to look for proof themselves by talking with Taoist Masters , not people who keep saying “ Never heard of it” NZRIC :…………… but if you say qigong drives you mad (or causes mental problems), you'd better have some good research behind you or we'll start thinking you've been spending too much time in Sung yourself. SC: Like I said, I never never never never said Qigong caused insanity. You are putting words in my mouth
Hwardo: “Do you suppose a Chinese person would go to one of us? “ SC: IMHO, A Chinese person will go to “ one of us” if we have a working knowledge of Mandarin in addition to TCM training. Just the same as “ one of us “ will go to a Chinese Western trained doctor provided he has a working knowledge of English ( or the dominant language of the land). By “ Working knowledge” I mean enough to read TCM reports, research findings, herb names and have indepth TCM conversations with other practitioners. And the more discerning Caucasians will go to a Caucasian TCM on the basis of his Mandarin skills. Which reminds me of a comment a Caucasian IMA colleague made. He said he wouldn’t take IMA instructions from a non Chinese/ Japanese sifu unless he has spent several years in China/ Japan and speaks the language well enuff to have an untranslatable appreciation of the Social – Economic - Philosophical factors from which the IMA was born. But with EMA he needn’t be that fussy as one can learn EMA from a video …just need to copy the movements, no intricate subtle body mechanics like in IMA.
So what excactly is "improper Qigong", someone else's style? "Qigong done wrong" So many schools have different apporachs to Qigong,as well as a large amount of stlyes,I agree there are some fundamental basics but after that there seems countless interpretations,which are right? and which are wrong? In the end you have to trust your Teacher, practise diligently,interprete feeling's that arise, continue with leraning through self-reflection and external guidence. In my mind there can not be Wrongs and Rights.
This horse is definitely on its way to a better place, but I thought I would share this one last bit of info with everyone: I just got back from a three day qigong conference through the WISH institute, where we trained in a very solid and healthy system of qigong that was also quite powerful. This was the first opportunity I have had to train with an honest to goodness qigong master who has a comprensive understanding of all the different meridians and areas of generation. I felt like I was in very good hands, despite the intense nature of the gongs we were doing. Here is what he had to say about potential dangers: 99% of the deviations you hear about are actually a natural part of the process of dissolving blockage and re-balancing the body's energy. The problem is when people misinterpret these symptoms, and begin to believe that something is going wrong. The qi follows the yin (intention) and sure enough, what the thinker thinks, the prover proves, and more blockage develops. He said that this only happens when people have extremely strong, yet misguided intention (for instance, a person with schizophrenia), but that even in that case real damage requires stronger qi than most movement gongs can generate, and that you have to practice very incorrectly for it to happen. You also should not practice if you have a history of mental illness-- he said that this is where the "qi driving you mad" idea comes from. If you practice a powerful gong when you have a latent or obvious mental illness, you run the risk of exacerbating the problem, but an otherwise healthy person would have to try exceedingly hard to drive themselves crazy. All in all, if you are in basically good mental health, and you stay relaxed and focused, the dangers are absolutely minimal, especially when considering the immense benefits you stand to gain. If anyone is curious about WISH, their website is www.wishus.org My qi will never be the same. : )
hwardo, I am glad you posted this info as it helps clear up things nicely for me The site you linked to looks interesting too.
It was nice for me too-- also cleared up for me was the path towards the small heavenly orbit. Like Syd said earlier, it is best to just experience it for yourself, and after this weekend, I am no longer going to treat qigong like a dangerous power tool-- too much tension in that. I feel a newfound freedom to have fun with it, and that is pretty damn important, I think. I dig the new avatar. : )
I couldnt agree more Having just started out on the IMA road, I am completely new to Qigong and when I saw some of the comments on this thread it made my ears prick up so to speak. Now I am completely at ease and happy to be totally guided by my teacher, but posts such as yours above help reinforce all this so many thanks for sharing the info (yet again ) And yeah the new av is ok isnt it. I had trouble finding something that still looked ok being cropped down to 75 x 75 pixle sbut this did the job.
