Potential cause of Knee problems?

Knee problems are fairly common in sports, espcially those requiring a ripid change in speed/direction.

I know a number of people in MA who also have knee problems.

I was once told not to go into a low stance that placed your knee past your ankle. Would repeatedly doing this increase the risks of developing knee problems?

 

I believe that, in a forward stance, placing your front knee beyond the vertical line going through your toes will place it under undue stress. I'd also have to question the martial value in such a stance.

Mike

 

Hi Mike,

I long forward stance is a perfect example of what I mean.

Do certain forms of Karate have stances which put your knee in such a position? (Shotokan?)

The reason I ask it that there is a basic movement which I am trying to do and the only way I can get into a low position is to extend my knee past this vertical line. It is actually possible to do it be moving my rear leg further back, but it tends to bend slightly and provide less strength.

Any advice on this?

 

Alignment is very important. Check here

Also, a physiotherapist may be well worth the visit

 

Also there is a certain amount of strengthening that has to be done to the knees to prevent injury as well. For me personally I have noticed that the outside muscles and ligaments of my knees are strong and well supported, however, I have noticed that the inside of my knees are quite weak and susceptible to pain and injury.

To an extent this can be avoided by stretching the ligaments and strengthening the surrounding muscles of the joint. This idea is similar to strengthening any other joint in the body. Though I do agree the knee was not made to go far past the vertical axis of the feet/toes. Though I have seen some people do this, without asking I don't know if they had any knee problems or if they had stregthened the joint enough to not have the effect.

 

Any time your knees go beyond your toes, unless they are in a dead strait line with the way the knee point likes to go you get shearing force on the joint which yes could cause injury. Your body can deal with they forces though generally. It is mainly an issue with heavy weight lifting ie when you have much much more weight on than your body usually would have. This applies to obese people too. This is what my physio told me

 

I've certainly seen some Shotokan people go to these extremes, but not all by any means. It doesn't need to be part and parcel of the style, although for some instructors it seems to be.

Another stance that seems to be problematic is kibadachi / horse stance. Some people do this extremely deep and hold it there. Its worth bearing in mind that its ancestor in Okinawan systems is much, much higher - no more than shoulder width in some systems.

Another risk factor to look out for is having your knee and your toes pointing in different directions. This is OK in some stances (ie. inner circular stances such as Sanchin) but should be avoided in all others. Generally speaking, keep your toes and your knees pointing in the same direction. A typical example of bad practice here is when you see people trying to get into too deep back stances, and let the rear knee drop forwards.

Mike

 

What do you think of the long term implications of the stance shown here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1080

Generally speaking I might aim to get even lower than this....
Also note the position of the front foot.

 

Thats not a hugly deep stance, doubt it will give you many issues.

 

There's nothing wrong with letting your knees pass your toes as long as you're keeping your knee in line with the direction your toes are pointing. In fact, if you never train in this position and teach your body to stabalize at that particular range of motion, you can actually increase the chance that you will hurt yourself in such a position. Knees pass toes all the time, when you climb stairs, walk up a hill, squat down low, if you climb anything, etc. It's important to train this range of motion to ensure you can support yourself in it.

 

I think any potential issue with this stance is not its depth but the knee alignment. If done correctly it shouldn't cause a problem but its quite easy to let your knee slip inwards too far. Do that a lot and you can stretch the ligaments on the inner aspect of the knee - not a good thing!

In this particular stance your knee should not (in contrast to many karate stances) be directly above your foot. If it is, then its too far forward and you can probably feel a stretch down the inside of the knee - let it straighten slightly and drop back slightly and the stretch sensation should go away.

The nearest person in the photo looks like they're doing a perfectly decent stance, so that's worth emulating.

A couple of other points to consider:
1. Its not just the posture you need to look at, but also how you move from one posture to another.
2. What's right for one person's knee isn't necessarily right for someone else's. For example, if you already have a knee problem, it might be aggravated by a move or posture that is perfectly OK for other people.

Learn to listen to the messages your joints give you.

Mike

 

Nice post Mike.

Anyone here do Yoga? You'll notice that poses like the Warrior etc. can align your knee in front of your feet the deeper you go into the pose. I find building strength and flexibility to this area through activities like running, yoga and weights has held me in good stead.

I do not do horse stances and the like in my MA, so not sure how much of a contributing factor that could be in knee pain for some MA'ists.

 

You have to think about how your knee joint is designed to bend, and then question how you are doing every stance & kick, to see if you are working against that.
One particular thing I am looking at at the moment is my back leg position when performing a gyaku-tsuki (ie. left leg forward, punch with right hand, being driven by the right hip pushing through). When I get tired, I tend to leave my back foor planted, instead of swiveling it onto the ball of the foot to unlock the hip. This puts a severe twist on the knee. And it also makes the technique crappy!
Other things are doing stretching, so that your legs can get to the required angle when kicking, rather than stopping short and wrenching the knees.

 

I found that, for me, that main contribution to keeping my knees healthy is weight training. But I had to start with some physiotherapy exercises (for my damaged anterior cruciate ligament) and build up very slowly from there. now I'm careful to keep the supporting musculature strong, but also careful to avoid movements and postures that place inappropriate strain on the joint.

Mike

 

You should (unless you have some medical issue preventing it) be able to do a reverse punch with your rear heel on the floor. Once upon a time in karate it was the only accepted way, to raise your heel would have been blasphemy.

It shouldn't put unecessary strain on the knee - I should know, its exactly that kind of twisting force through the leg that gives me problems. If you're having difficulty doing it this way then its probably because either:
1. Your rear foot is pointed too far to the side (which may itself be a result of poor ankle flexibility)
2. Your stance is too long.

If you try shortening the stance a little and (if possible and comfortable) pointing the rear towards more forwards hopefully you'll find it easier to commit the hip without having to raise the heel.

Personally I use both - heel up, heel down depending on the circumstances.

Mike

 

Mike, all I meant with the yoga statement is that there are poses where the knee is extended over the foot I did advocate weight training in my post too

 

Sure, in basics (and I keep my back foot pointing as near forwards as it'll go).
But lifting your heel to let your hip go through gives you about 6" more reach in kumite. (And I need that, as I'm not that big, and have short arms too!)

 

Sorry Lily, I didn't mean to sound contrary. I was just saying what worked for my particular problem.

What little I know of yoga leads me to suspect that by the time you get into a deep pose (where the knee is carrying a significant portion of your bodyweight) you've been doing it long enough that you'll have already significantly strengthened the muscles supporting the joint. Would you agree?

Mike

 

Ah, OK, understood.

Mike

 

I just had a look at that photo - that's an Aikido stance with the front foot turned out and both feet on the same line.
I find it very weird to do, as it goes against karate principles (a simple forward stamping kick to the front knee would be sayonara).
I've done a little Aikido, and IMHO it is a much more flowing MA than karate, and that is a transitional stance.
I wouldn't try taking that stance lower, personally.
Actually, I find Aikido hard on the knees, and the knee walking thing and kneeling in seiza are agony to me!