Pope States: Big Bang and Evolution Theories are real

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Hannibal, Oct 28, 2014.

  1. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Then what created the terribly complex and amazing thing that created us? Using your principle, it must have been created, right?
  2. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I uhh. I think you're joking. I'd be really, really happy to discuss this in detail with you in a non insulting, friendly and evidence based manner, but I don't want to type out a huge post for someone to just say 'j/k bro.' The fact that you've restated William Paley's argument makes me think that you're just trolling.
  3. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    The article is very interesting to me, too, but I'm pretty sure the last pope said the same thing (somewhere around here I have a newspaper clipping), and this article cites two others, so really -- Francis is just toeing the line. :dunno: That's not a bad thing at all, but it ought not be surprising in the least.

    No, there is no definitive "this is how it happened" statement by the Catholic Church. One reason for that is that there is no final definitive statement of how evolution happened. The big idea is solid, but the details are a constantly shifting target. The official statement of the CC is that the big idea of evolution is not inherently in conflict with the Church's dogma of God creating the universe -- and more to the point, of God creating humans.

    Incidentally, the collective of Eastern Orthodox Churches takes the same position as the Catholic Church.
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
  4. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    There has been a lot of scientific study into this beyond mere speculation. Most importantly, the theory made a number of testable predictions, including the presence of a general background radiation to the universe and expansion of space from a point. In short, it's a strong theory rather than just speculation.

    Many believe it was created through natural processes, including the big bang and evolution (and many other processes between those two). Ultimately someone's religious beliefs don't have any impact on our knowledge of the universe (though in fairness they may drive that person's desire to understand what they perceive as god's creation).

    Time has a lot to answer for regarding complexity.

    I don't know anyone whose body works in perfect harmony. We generally have bad backs, bad circulation, susceptibility to diseases, poor-fitting teeth, baldness, knees going wrong, arthritis, etc ad infinitum. These are not signs of a perfect designer but rather of a whole load of patches to improve or fix an older model, exactly what we would expect from evolution.

    No scientist claims this. The Big Bang preceded evolution on Earth by over 10 billion years.

    When we see a watch we know there's a watchmaker because we have seen mechanical devices being built before and understand that humans can and do build similar looking items. We can therefore conclude that an individual watch is made if we find it, and from there we can extrapolate to understand that f we find something with cogs, springs, batteries, etc, it was also made.

    The universe itself and life are not analogous. We cannot simply state that they look complex, therefore creation.

    No, not at all.
  5. Wildlings

    Wildlings Baguette Jouster

    Being in a country where Catholicisms is pretty much everywhere, I can confirm it's no big news. Children are taught in the church that "God started evolution" - though mostly when they start arguing with the Adam&Eve story because they learnt about evolution at school. Though I've also heard about Adam and Eve being primates and similar stories. :D
    It seems this Pope is a very good marketer though.
  6. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Our bodies are incredibly complex things, but they evolved over millions of years from far simpler organisms. To suggest that the big bang 'created' our bodies is either a strawman argument, or else you are mistakenly overlooking millions of years of evolotion.
  7. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    But what is his opinion on studying what happened before the big bang?
  8. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!


  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Really? I thought they observed it first... [edit: nope, just checked it out. It was the temperature and the non-uniformity they didn't predict.]

    But yeah, the whole complexity/beauty argument wasn't convincing 800 years ago when Thomas Aquinas came out with it, and it's even less convincing now.
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    That may be what they state but they'd be wrong IMHO.
    Either humans evolved by natural selection (an unguided processs) or they were created by god (at best some sort of evolution by supernatural selection).
    Can't have it both ways.
    The catholic church is trying to have it's blessed cracker and eat it too.
  11. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Why not?

    To me, it seems more like (sorry for the crappy analogy) holding a wheelbarrow full of fertilizer at the top of the hill and then just giving it a nudge to get it going. What happens to it after that is entirely up to nature, gravity, environmental conditions, etc.

    In other words, God was the spark that "nudged" our evolution in a certain direction at a certain point, but everything that happened as a result of that nudge is an entirely natural process. Thus you get natural evolution with divine guidance.

    Not saying I agree with it, but that's how it feels to me it's being argued.

    Gotta give 'em props for trying to find a way to fit their faith into modern society though rather than flat-out ignoring it.
  12. Rhythmkiller

    Rhythmkiller Animo Non Astutia

    Absolutely this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!

  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    That analogies on point actually.
    The problem isn't that god started it (even that is precluded to me because evolution is an emergent property once certain factors are in place)...it's that it had an intended outcome using that process (namely the production of humans).
    It'd be like god nudging the wheelbarrow but then also following it down the hill and nudging it from time to time so it followed a course of his choosing and ends up stopping where he wants it to stop.
    That then stops it being evolution by natural selection.
    As you said it then becomes "evolution with divine guidance" and that is an entirely different theory to darwinistic evolution.
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You guys are missing the obvious answer:

    Aliens :p
  15. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Pfffft. Everyone knows they were a side project.

  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    And another thing...evolution by natural selection is a HIDEOUS process.
    It is literally built on eons of suffering, pain and death.
    A god that uses that as a means to create something, especially when he seemingly has the power to do it another way, isn't all loving and benevolent.
    He's a sick psycho.
    A god creating humans via evolution is like me making my daughter the most intelligent child in her class by killing all the kids cleverer than her. :(
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Nah. The previous centuries of persecution and flat out trying to supress what they didn't like kind of mar that IMHO.
    It's not like they didn't try to ignore things in the past (hell they are still only just emerging from trying to ignore paedophile priests for their entire history).
    Basically they are trying to incorporate evolution into catholocism because they can see you can't deny that it's true.
    But they can't fully embrace the ramifications of it either.
  18. Sampsi

    Sampsi Valued Member

    Deuteronomy 6:15
    for the LORD your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the LORD your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth.

    Putting human morals and emotions on something that isn't human is a bit off. Like saying that eating live squid is cruel, while in certain countries there is no negative connotation put on it at all.
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Human morals and emotions?
    What like jealousy and anger?
    Seems to me human morals and emotions are already attributed to him in his damn book no?
    Like in Deuteronomy 6:15 perhaps? :)

    But either way...by all means worship an angry and jealous god that creates things through pain and suffering.
    It ain't for me.
  20. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    It is cruel. Whether someone finds it morally repugnant or not is up to them.
    In certain counties and cultures there's no negative connotations to slavery, genocide, racism, child sacrifice, animal torture, yadda yadda.
    Good luck arguing there's no negative connotations to those things. :)

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