Polish federation of European martial arts (clip)

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by cloudz, May 4, 2012.

  1. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    This looks like a lot of fun, with a fair bit of skill on show. Thought some of you guys might enjoy it on a quiet Friday.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qthCkt6Jolk"]FEDER - Polska Federacja Dawnych Europejskich Sztuk Walki - YouTube[/ame]
     
  2. Allers

    Allers tricking, kicking

    Literal translation of title is "FEDER - the polish federation of ancient european martial arts." nice to see some of my blood shown in a positive way :D

    Interesting stuff... quite skillful :D
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Very nice!

    I particularly like the idea of giving referees really big sticks!!!
     
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Holy shizolli that looks dangerous.
    "The polish federation of people queuing up to walk onto a metal spike".
     
  5. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    It's just like MAP really... ;) :D :yeleyes:

    Cool stuff though!
     
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I hate federschwerts. That whole whippy leaping about big movement fighting is exactly what the first paragraph in every fechtbuch tells you not to do. Worse than that it is becoming the dominant culture in European HEMA. If they did what we did and stripped off all that padding except gloves and masks they would't be in such a damn rush to get hit. Dog Brothers have the right idea, higher consciousness through harder contact. Not lighter weapons with heavier protection.

    The Bear.
     
  7. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    I don't mind what they're doing, and they're a tough bunch of guys, very fit and all that. I admire what they're doing. The trouble arises when tournament fighting becomes ALL you train for. It does seem that HEMA tournament fencing is all the rage in Europe right now, with Gdansk and the Swedes and others. When you use it as part of your training, then it's all good... might as well spend part of your time training against someone who isn't scared of getting hit with a sharp blade. There are (and were) crazies out there.

    If they're honest about focusing on sport longsword fencing, more power to 'em. I like tourney fighting, but it only takes up perhaps 20% of our training.

    At the AES we train ernstfechten... techniques for a fight with sharps. But doing some tourney-style fighting once in a while is fun. It's just not what we focus on.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  8. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i find it disturbing that the discussion about sport fencing styles brings to mind parallels to sport karate. if so, i weep for HEMA.

    that said, cool vid!
     
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Totally agree. Europe is a disaster area these days. I was at a seminar recently where a well known instructor said "Longsword has to look good because the average person doesn't care if it's effective. In order to make the art grow we need to impress these people". It was the day I realised that my club had parted ways with the mainstream.
    All my fighters were told if we entered the tournament and fought like we did in our club (i.e. with full power and intent) we would be disqualified for unsafe practices.
    I was asked later why I wasn't taking part in the tourney. I said it was pointless and was not how I was trained. They said why does your club spar so much if you don't take part in tournament. This is the European mentality now.
    I've decided to stop going to events as they just make me angry at the low level of student conditioning and number of snakeoil salesmen that have sprouted up.


    The Bear.
     
  10. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    "Here begins Master Liechtenauer’s art of
    fencing with the sword, on foot and on
    horseback, in armour and without. And
    before all things you should know and understand
    that the sword is only one art and
    it was devised and thought out hundreds
    of years ago. This art is the foundation and
    core and it was completely understood and
    known by Master Liechtenauer. Not that
    he himself devised or thought out what is
    described, but he travelled and searched
    through many lands since he wanted to
    learn and experience this art. And this art
    is quite earnest and righteous, and it goes
    from the nearest in search of the closest and
    goes straight and right when you wish to
    strike or thrust. So that when you want to
    attack someone it is as if you had a cord tied
    to the point or edge of your sword and this
    leads the point or edge to an opening."

    "For you should strike or thrust in the shortest
    and nearest way possible. For in this
    righteous fencing do not make wide or ungainly
    parries or fence in large movements
    by which people restrict themselves. Many
    Masters of play fighting [Leychmeistere]
    say that they themselves have thought out
    a new art of fencing that they improve from
    day to day. But I would like to see one who
    could think up a fencing move or a strike
    which does not come from Liechtenauer’s
    art. Often they want to alter or give a new
    name to a technique, all out of their own
    heads and think up wide reaching fencing
    and parries and often make two or three
    strikes when one would be enough or stepping
    through and thrust, and for this they
    receive praise from the ignorant. With
    their bad parries and wide fencing they
    try to look dangerous with wide and long
    strikes that are slow and with these they
    perform strikes"


    Ms 3227a - "Doebringer" manuscript. The video violates everything the first ever recorded paragraph for the Leichtenauer system tell you.
     
  11. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    so it's basically sport karate with swords, pretty much to a T. i suggest mass dojo storming.
     
  12. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    thats dam cool to my untrained eye anyway, always wanted to do something like this. I love it when a bit of grappling gets thrown in with fencing, so much more what the real thing would look like in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  13. N1N

    N1N Valued Member

    Right this will probably sound stupid, but let me preface this by saying I do not know a lot about HEMA. I do not know is degenerate is the correct wording, but this video looks like traditional HEMA has degenerated in to sport HEMA.

    What does everyone think?
     
  14. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Grappling is an integral part of longsword. It's just that this is roughhousing. There are none of the proper throws or locks executed.

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    It's worse than that. There are the HEMA purists who don't spar or pressure test the art. So it's just drill drill drill. So we gets assaulted from both ends of the idiot spectrum.

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  16. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    The problem with some sportified HEMA is that for the most part, they're not using historical rulesets. Many (but not all) rules back in the day were designed to reinforce the techniques that are in the manuals... fighting from Krieg, etc.

    Now, I'm not saying that roughousing doesn't have its place. If that's what you've got, then bowl him over. That being said, the "Fechtschule Gdansk 2010" video shows Ringeck's 3rd Durchlauffen more than once and some reasonable disarms. There's a nice sprechfenster/durchwechseln/redel sequence and some decent hanging parries. I saw the Zwerch to the four openings (seems to be one of their favourites). So it's not all bad. And the talent pool for HEMA is still rather small, so hopefully we'll see cleaner technique in the future as the level of practicioners improves overall.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  17. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    You should visit HEMA in Oslo and make up your mind on your own.

    Polar Bear should keep attending gatherings in order to let his voice be heard. IMO it's not so catastrophical as PB describes it.One have to look at the history of HEMA, which have been constantly evolving, and it keeps evolving.

    Here's my wiew on the history of HEMA, from a Norwegian perspective:
    HEMA started off as Re-enactors in the 80's and 90's discovering the actual manuals and wanting to learn how people "actually" fought, not just showfighting/hollywood-fighting.

    They then sat down with 2d-drawings and cryptical medieval texts, translating them on an amateur basis.

    Slowly the understanding of the text grew, but in the beginning of the new millenium, theese people discovered that when they visited their re-enactment-cousins, they would be crushed in a duel. This was very demoralizing; modern show-fighing beeing better than the arts of the knigths, -or they were doing somthing wrong. They realized that what the re-enactors learned that they had missed out on was timing, distancing and control of the blade.

    That's when people started focusing on flow-drills, timing-drills, and duelling, and IMO that's the light you must see theese videos of fast, contact-willing duelling; training on timing and distancing. And actually, if you had looked at free-sparring-videos from 7 years backi, it would all be void of technique; today people are actually able to apply techniques from the manuals.

    The dilemma is protection vs realism. As Polar Bear sais, they go so light contact (or too much protection), so they loose the aspect of fear for getting hit.

    My group doesn't spar with feder (yet), we fight with metal blunt or wood or plastic, with t-shirts, gloves and fencing-masks. The problem with this sort of sparring, is that unless you go light contact, you injure yourself, so Then you have to add protection, but then you stop getting afraid of the hits, etc, etc.
     
  18. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Perhaps I am too cynical but I've seen it happen in just about every martial art in the last 30 years. It's just the "characters" who I have met at recent seminars who are very slick and are great salesmen get listened to. The minute you talk about the original intention of swordsmanship as killing your opponent without dying. People roll their eyes and walk off. The main reason is that HEMA is primariliy a middle-class sport and most of the people in it have never thrown a punch in anger. They've never faced someone with a weapon as such are completely divorced from the reality of what they train.

    I remember talking with Bill Coyle (Koyo) years ago when I started HEMA and telling him of my high hopes and he just smiled and said "Yeah I felt that way about Aikido too in the early days but people will always take the easy route instead of training properly". He was right. It's alot easier to sell a sport. So that's what's happening. The commericalisation of HEMA will bring it to the sporting end of the spectrum because thats what sells. Nice uniforms and tournaments are a marketable product. Learning a sword art that you will never use is not. I am a realist and know that what I teach only a handful of people will be interested in. So I just quietly train away.

    The Bear.
     
  19. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    The shock knife the Dog brothers use is a good advancement for this kind of training and sport. It kinda get's the message across, and brings that fear factor to the game.

    At the end of the day, however you choose to imitate real life. It'll always be an imitation and will therefore fall short someway or another. All such things therefore are about striking a balance and compromise. The idea would be to make it as close as possible to real life simulation of martial arts. Didn't past wariors have armour (protection) for example ?

    There's no way to know for example if your "hit" would or wouldn't translate to a clean kill. Given the circumstances being simulated, I somehow doubt it.
    So you can argue for the fact that doing it in a format that the match is over when one hit is scored is also unrealistic.

    In of itself there's nothing wrong with sporting matches that simulate the skills and combat involved in a sword duel.
    If you are good enough to dominate your opponent in one ruleset, it's a fair bet that those skills and attributes that allow you that will translate to other formats and rules.

    It stands to reason that if you take too many poorly calculated chances, because of lack of fear; you'll suffer the consequences of losing out in the scoring because of it.
    People should be able to figure that out and make the original strategies and tactics of swordmanship work in their favour - even in competition. It still comes back, more or less, to who's best at consistently scoring, whilst minimising being scored against.

    I can appreciate though that everyone is entitled to their preferences.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2012
  20. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    Bingo. This is it in a nutshell. It's what I saw immediately when I watched the clip. There was a lot of concern about hitting the opponent first but very limited respect for the opponent's blade. Every time I saw Black hit with a thrust he did so in a way that left him in extreme danger of a counter-cut. I kept thinking "a dying man has nothing to lose."

    To be fair, as Bear says, I've seen this in just about every "weapon competition" format I've ever seen and it's easy to see why. It's so natural and easy to fall into the trap. I have to keep reminding my guys of the two different kinds of sparring and how they're not the same as competition. I like the Judo method of randori and shiai. Randori is just free practice. You're looking to see what works for you or to practice and learn new skills. In that format, it's ok to get hit or to "fail." You don't learn if you don't fail. You have to put it in pressure and take the risks to figure out the distances, timing, and what sort of body types and body responses are the proper context. Then there's shiai. Don't get hit. Hitting is important but not getting hit is MORE important. We'll usually do several rounds of free practice followed up with a close of one or two rounds of "don't get hit."

    To date, the only competition format that I've seen which does a decent job of truly encouraging respect for the opponent's weapon and "not getting hit is more important" is the Cateran Society's "Broadsword League." Hitting earns you one point. Getting hit COSTS you 2 points. This method rewards the "Defensive Game."

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     

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