Police Teaching Defence

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by Melanie, Sep 13, 2005.

  1. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/4230455.stm

    Students trained in self-defence

    Women students at Leeds University are being given self-defence lessons by West Yorkshire police officers.
    The classes start on Thursday and will continue into March as part of an initiative by the students' union.

    Students will receive the same basic self-defence skills that police officers are taught when they join the force.

    Organisers of the workshops claim they will give the women a greater degree of reassurance.

    Extra step

    Ch Insp Keith Boughen said: "This limited training is being provided as a result of an approach from the students' union and while it is statistically unlikely people will ever need self-defence skills, having them can improve self confidence.

    "This is simply an extra step we can take to reassure students and show them how to protect themselves."

    Kim Shutler, the women's officer at Leeds University students' union, said there has been such interest in the classes that more are planned for later in the year.

    "We encourage everyone to take advantage of all the advice on offer and to avoid taking risks at all costs," she said.

    Is this the way forward? Should this become mandatory?
     
  2. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    It's better than nothing. But police defensive tactics is a vastly different thing than women's self defense. PDT is centered around making an arrest. WSD is about not being the victim of a crime and often involves just the opposite - safely disengaging.
     
  3. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Have you actually attended this class then? What was involved? Did many show up? How did they advertise it? I'm sorry - your profile doesn't say where you are based so I figured you might have gone?
     
  4. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    I train with a police officer and a future Fed. They do train differently than the rest of the class, because their goal, as Tellner pointed out, is arrest rather than escape. But I see no reason why their techniques cannot be modified to fir a woman looking for some good basic self-defense.

    Although I think it's a shame that we have to do this, I think it's a good thing to do.
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It would depend on the instructor concerned as I consider the Police syllabus to generally not be worth tuppence.

    Happily in GMP we have quality instructors like Matt Clempner - who is quite frankly scary
     
  6. Jesh

    Jesh Dutch Side Of The Force

    Any such initiative in this direction is good and should be supported.
     
  7. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    What i have seen of what the police teach their officers it is not about self defence. Its about arresting and subduing a person normally with 3 or 4 officers. Quite impractical for self defence. So i would like to think that is not what is being taught.
     
  8. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    To be honest the problem is a load of people dont take self defence seriously and think it means beating people up. At our school a police person came in and told us all about how to avoid problems etc. but a day later nobody remembered any of it and most didn't care anyway
     
  9. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Its such a shame - self defence is more then physical - its mental attitude - and they have displayed a desparate lack of self defence technique by forgetting the preliminaries!!
     
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Sounds like a great idea.

    And I don't know why people have the idea that these self-defense courses would be the same agenda as what police officers are trained in. The article says the same SKILLS as police, not the same training.

    No law enforcement sponsored training given to the general public that I have attended (some dozen or so over the years) had anything to do with arresting a suspect. It was all for the civilian, mainly focusing on awareness, police procedures and your options within the law, and basic self-defense skills.

    The training on police procedures was not so that one would arrest someone else, it was so that you knew what you could do within the law when approached by police. For instance, say you are driving on a country road late at night and a police car tries to pull you over. Instead of pulling over with no one around, it may be within your rights to yield to let the police car pass, but if it was clear it was you they wanted then it may be within the law for you to continue on to a safer destination such as a 24-hour store where you could pull over with witnesses there. This is especially true in some jurisdictions if it is not a clearly marked police car, but an unmarked car. If you wonder why, it is because people can pretend to be police to trick you, so the law provides reasonable options to protect you. For instance, in the case of where I live, no unmarked police car will pull over cars on deserted roads late at night. If they do end up doing so, they will always call for a marked police car to come and that officer will do all the talking to the civilian. Also, if pulled over by an unmarked car, where I live, you can always request a clearly marked police car to come and talk to that officer.

    There are many such procedures employed by law enforcement... knowing the procedure and your options can help keep you safer instead of dropping your guard against a criminal minded person.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2005
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I hate to be picky but it quite clearly says;

    Not "similar" or any other variation but "SAME". This emphatically means they are being taught the same syllabus - which I still maintain is not adequate for "civvies" for the reason outlined by other posters.

    Having said that it is nice to see the subject of self-protection at least getting some exposure (although the old phrase "a little knowledge..." does spring unbidden to mind)
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    No, you are not being picky, but I would point out that the statement made is NOT a direct quote from any official... for all we know it is entirely the fabrication of the journalist/author of the article. However, not to show disrespect to the press who work hard to bring us the relevant facts.

    Furthermore, even if the statement was official, it says "Students will receive the same basic self-defence skills that police officers are taught when they join the force." This does not mean it is the same syllabus but only that the goal is to teach the same skills. And what skills are we talking about? The same basic self-defense skills, not the same job function skills.

    e.g. this is akin to me saying that I will teach you the same basic reading skills that I taught someone else. And then everyone assuming that means I will teach you the same lessons and using the same syllabus I used to teach others to read. I don't see how that is an accurate expectation as I could use a completely different syllabus to teach you the same skills based on your situation, goals, and learning aptitude.
     
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Then why make it an issue of the "police " aspect?

    In fact the skills we need on the frontline are markedly different than any that you require in "civvy street" - we not supposed to run away for starters - and any syllabus teaching you what we do would eb a recipe for disaster (as I said, our syllabus isn't brilliant at the best of times).

    I appreciate your distinction, but it seems to me that the meaning is "fight like the police"
     
  14. firecoins

    firecoins Armchair General

    There are thing the police train in that would be very useful in self defense.

    First when the use violence is justified. Police are trained in the legalities of violence. Its a major part of their syllubus that would carry out as useful to civilians.

    Police are trained in awareness. They need it to do their job. This is also useful.

    If you are in a self defense incident that the police arrive at, dealing with police in the immediate aftermath might be very important.

    You don't need to train with police for actual martial art moves.
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    There is no getting around "fight like the police" since students will be taking training from local police officers. So I agree with you that those parts of the class that involve fighting will be the same as what the officers know.

    I was being critical of the remarks made by others that this included arrest techniques and that the training would not change for the context of women college students. People imagined this as exactly the same training provided to police. I don't agree with that.

    Such an initiative like this training is not new, I've attended many such as this throughout the years. Why would this one be any different? None of them touched more than just the basic self-defense training a law officer might encounter in the first week of training in unarmed combat. There was nothing covered beyond that on the physical side. So this included escapes from grabs, punch defenses, and striking. They did not cover pinning, knife counters, large projections, immobilizations, locking techniques, firearms, etc. They did not cover arrest techniques.

    They did cover awareness, risk and threat analysis, and legal options, including options of running away or leaving a scene of a crime, when judgment calls like that were needed, etc.

    Again, why would this training be different than other law enforcement sponsored training offered to college aged civilians?

    Anyway, programs like this is all valuable training, with some of the most value probably coming to students from just being around police officers. The stories they had to tell and the answers they could give to questions probably influenced many students more than the training itself.

    BTW, here is the official press release for the program: http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/section-item.asp?sid=12&iid=1213

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2005

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