Playing defensive offensively

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by axelb, Oct 19, 2021.

  1. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    I found this interesting to watch, taking the defensive concepts of Priit Mihkelson and putting it into a game in competition:

    I occasionally go back to working on defensive, I like how they made it into a whole game plan, and it looks incredibly frustrating for the opponent.
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  2. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I used to do this (because I'm an older grappler and until a year ago had a messed up hip) and i know a few older guys who roll very defensively and are effective
    The problem that I found with it is that you are really waiting for your opponent to make a mistake. This can take a while (if ever) as people get more experienced and if they are bigger and experienced then they can grind their way through your defences
    I changed my approach after trying out a competition and realised that I was just losing points and didn't have enough time to wear the opponent down
  3. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Think Priit did a seminar recently as well..

    Theres a couple of moves I want to see if it'll work against this.

    I dont know what its called but its in Catch, where you dig your elbow in the space between the shoulder blade and spine. Natural reaction is the turtler will then pull their own shoulders back and raise their head. Creates space for a rear naked cross face/neck crank.

    2nd move I want to see if works......deadlift german suplex :D
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  4. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Ah here we go.

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  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I've regularly roll with a blackbelt who spends a lot of time doing the telles/priit style turtle, but he's also an ex shooto guy with fantastic wrestling, so the minute you start going for the head (unless it's spot on of course) etc he'll transition and put you on the bottom, it's best used as a place to transition from really, but having a good defensive and offensive game is the overall aim.

    Priit Vs Martin Aedma (who has a very good aggressive, top pressure/ wrestling style)

    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
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  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Thinking about it, this is just an evolution of the entire Helio Gracie Vs Carson Gracie ideology.

    Helio: have perfect defense then take advantage of your opponents mistakes.

    Carson Gracie, put so much pressure on them that you make them make the mistakes.

    Ideally have a good balance of both is needed.
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  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    This is the problem for "sport". When striking is not allowed, the non-striking MA can move into some unrealistic direction.

    You spend you entire life to be good in the turtle technique. Some 20 years old just "punch on the back of your head" and knock you out. What's the value of your training - expose your head and assume that nobody will punch it?

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  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Somebody better tell sakuraba his running to turtle Vs a guard pass won't work in MMA:

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  9. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Roger strongly advocates building a defensive game first
    If you watch his matches he typically weathers the storm for a while and then works his way into a dominant position
    I think that’s partly due to physical / personality characteristics as certainly people are successful by being super aggressive also
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  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Yeah he advocates "basics". Slow and good constant pressure.
    His pressure guard pass is unreal.
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  11. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i roll with a lot of former carlson gracie guys and i second that. lots of pressure always with those fellas, and they use the pressure to force you into doing something you don't want to do, to which of course they're ready for.

    one note to add to the conversation....i always have to trick myself mentally to not hang back and be on the attack, even when i'm say on the ground and my opponent is standing and trying to pass my guard. i think, it's always better to be on the offense.
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  12. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    from the wiki page:

  13. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    This video was an extreme example of using the defensive principles.

    I feel that I have to force myself towards working on defence as it is much easier mentally to not end in those positions to work on escape. Recently we had a lot more new white belts so this I feel is a good opportunity to work on defence and escape.

    I anticipate I'll go round in cycles every few months to work on certain areas.
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  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    You can't alway be the hammer, and you can't always be the nail, so why not study the best of both worlds.

    I've always loved this match:
    (Same concepts on display)

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  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    That's a great example, I've gone back and started working my mount defence again, with a bigger emphasis on bridging to open up my escapes, it's a great time to do so Vs whitebelts, although if you get someone athletic who knows what their doing, it can be a long session!!
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  16. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    yes, of course you're right. this happens to me especially when i just came back to rolling regularly.

    but i think it's an adjustment we have to think about if/when we need to use these tools in an amorphous and dangerous situation. of course, i'm not going to pull spider guard consciously (key word) if i'm on teh str33tz.

    i'd like to hear if possible from either experienced folks and/or experts in the subject matter. do we just revert to whatever our training is, or is it possible to make those adjustments?

    typically, the techniques i focus on are not pure-sport-typical. i like closed guard--the point of a thread that i started--and i like to go on attack and not be on my back. if i'm forced into open guard though, of course i will go for my favorites of spider, lasso, x, knee shield. i of course have turtled, but lately i am really trying to not be there long if i do get there at all.
  17. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i love this match too. it's just amazing that ryron could even survive against galvao. yeah, i get it, ryron is a gracie. but galvao is a legit multiple world champion. there's a couple points in the match that ryron almost catches galvao too.

    if you remember the post-match, andre was ****ed.
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  18. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    My concern are:

    - Your opponent's arms are free.
    - You can't see what may happen behind you.
    - Even MMA and boxing don't allow to hit the back of the head, it's still a bad idea to expose the back of your head and assume your opponent's won't hit it.

    Why not to use your arms to protect your head just like the way you do in your stand up game? When your opponent tries to pull your arms, you can then deal with his arms.

    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  19. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    My sense is that when the adrenaline is up you’ll most likely either a) lose all technique in a panic or hopefully b) revert to your most ingrained “game”
    I think that relying on the hope that you’ll be able to make any material adjustments in a scary altercation is quite a high risk approach

    Personally I only adopt techniques into my game that I feel are good for self defence situations. I also adapt my core techniques to be appropriate for self defence (eg controlling the wrists much more than other folk)
    This is a little sub-optimal for rolling in the academy, but I’m Ok with that trade off and it works for me
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  20. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    thanks dunc.

    but isn't this why we train now? "adrenaline" is hopefully mitigated by training. we know what that feels like, yes? i go with guys that are much younger (i'm 51), stronger, fitter, etc. it's really scary to go against those fellas. and there may be times i want to go to a bad position if i think i can use it to my advantage for a sweep later--see ryron letting galvao mount him in order to get him to roll over.

    i'm in agreement though that i strive to use techniques that are good for self-defense, also.

    i'm not debating, just adding and asking clarifying questions and points.

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