Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by goatnipples2002, Feb 4, 2003.
Jiben Gong = method of training or curriculum...
Regarding the middle finger being used for the phoenix-eye...
Fists are named after their appearance or application so I would say it's not a phoenix-eye unless it's the index finger because the appearance of a phoenix-eye is lost.
Protruding middle-finger knuckles are known to me as chicken-heart fist or (as said above) dragon fist.
There is a double phoenix-eye which uses the index AND middle fingers with the thumb jammed behind them both. I think I've heard this referred to as a dragon fist, too...
Regarding the two methods of constructing the 'standard' phoenix-eye, I'm taught a third. The first two were the thumb supporting from below and from above. I do it from behind D)
As a mythical bird - how do you know what it's eye looks like?
Hooray, a question that doesn't need answering! My work here is done.
Rgds & goodnight,
Nice issue evasion skills
Just in case you're being seriously obtuse:
The phoenix is a mythical bird so you imagine a bird and give it some embellishment. The phoenix is widely represented in art. So, clearly imagination isn't a problem.
Obviously, the phoenix-eye fist looks more like a fist than it does a bird, much less a bird that doesn't exist. But from one angle, the curled index finger is reminiscent of a bird's eye. So, if you were going to name it, you'd think of a bird, preferably a cool one. I think you can see where I'm going with this.
I wonder now about where the myth originated because I'm fairly sure it's not China and so, how long has the fist been called phoenix-eye?
Now I really am going to bed! Goodnight,
* Squints at pic....
Nope - I see no bird's eye
More beer needed maybe.
you've mislead the discussion by posting pictures of the less common 'winking Phoenix Eye'.
Yoda, I broke a guys wrist with this technique once, and am happy to show you how it's done.
I haven't seen a variety of imaginary phoenixes, and none of them had eyes that looked like a knuckle.
What's a goat nipple fist?
..."My first real fight my knuckles, hands and wrists hurt. I asked myself what I could do to stop this from happening again. I looked into conditioning and body posture."...
That's the difference between internal and external. The principle of the internal arts isn't "get thick knuckles so you can punch things harder", it's a whole different system of movement.
First of all, strikes in IMA are aimed at the 'soft target's' of the body, not just repeated punches onto someone's skull (the skull tends to win, if not the enemy, against your knuckles).
Also, there is a lot of meditation and qigong aimed at building your chi and guiding that energy into your hands, so your hands are 'warmed up' and much more receptive to strikes.
Also, strikes are 'yin' up until the moment of impact, where they become yang, then yin immediately afterward. That way, there is much less chance of hurting yourself because the resistance of your own hand dissipates after the strike.
As well as that, movement comes from the ground and the legs, so all power is much more natural, economical, faster and less stressful on your own body.
As well as that, you never meet force on force in IMA - all movements are based on curves, redirecting the force, and/or rebounding off the opponent's strike to receive their force and shoot it back at them. You're not forcing your own body or struggling against them - so you don't keep tension in your body.
Lastly, by keeping your hand locked in that position, you may as well be wielding a knife or a short stick (which would do a lot more damage). The IMA strikes are with all parts of the hand - the knuckles, the tips of the fingers, the sides, palm and back (which are delivered in different ways)... not to mention grabs and pulls. There's no point locking your hand into one position because that stops you from using all the other methods.
It does work very well in certain Grappling scenarios, particularly against the neck and there are some nice Chin Na tricks to facilitate releases from low threat situations.
Strongly grinding it into the Sternum gives a nice 'electric shock' which makes most folk go 'ow' and let go of whatever they are holding. A nice also is to dig into the back of the hand in order to gain a grip release. But these are tricks.
I certainly am not skillful enough to be able to use it during an exchange of blows though, but that's more to do with the fact that I don't practice Phoenix Eye technique and such like.
But hey it worked great in Dragons Claws against Hwang Jang Lee...
Thanks SoKKlab - but if it's only good for pressing and grinding, what can the phoenix eye do that a thumb (or a small weapon (bic lighter?)) can't?
PHEONIX EYE in floating rib is painful.
A fajin palm shot to the sternum is more efficient than any single knuckle strike to that area as well as it being a totally natural position to melt into for other kinds of strikes. The more I examine various hand weapons the more I see the flexibility and advantage of palm strikes over any kind of fist.
You can use a palm with little or no conditioning on just about any part of the body without damage to the hand or joints. It would seem to me that any method which might increase the likelihood of damage to your own body in combat is flawed at best.
If used on the correct targets then no problems should arise but you need to realize also that accuracy in combat is going to decrease exponentially. I would always opt for an open palm method over any ingenious hand weapon that takes an unnatural form and requires the practitioner to have make that shape in a split second, with an attacker right on top of you.
A palm is the most natural and relaxed shape and position for a hand to be in and by that logic it is also going to be your quickest and fastest method of attack or defence. You can believe that a full blooded fajin strike to the temple with a knife edge palm strike would have exactly the same effect as a one knuckle strike. I would also wager that a palm strike would get there faster and more naturally.
A palm isn't anything you even have to subconciously think about, it is just there when you need it. Next time someone lunges at you trying to take your head off, see how fast and effective your creation, reaction, accuracy, targeting and timing is, using a one knuckle strike to the sternum, temple or floating rib... forget it.
I'm a big fan of palm strikes, too. I tend to use them in sparring. There's a guy who used a Police speed-gun to measure the speed of his strikes and he consistently found the palms to be faster.
I find the phoenix-eye hard to make in certain directions of movement. For example, I can make it very quickly for a nailing sideways punch to the temple but in a straight horizontal punch it takes me longer to form it. This difficulty of mine is mitigated by the use to which it can be put eg I grab and pull his wrist with one hand so he isn't thinking about hitting me and soon afterwards the phoenix-eye in my other hand hits home.
It a bit over the top to say the phoenix-eye is less because it can't be used for everything? With 15 fists to choose from, I'm not going to cut out ones (most) which can't be used for everything.
I'm still not sure whether you doubters of the naming of the fists by appearance are serious or not. I'm worried that you are and that doesn't bode well for you
I've just remembered I made an error in my post. I have not heard (before) of the middle-finger fist as being the dragon fist - it was known to me as the leopard fist. And guess what, the reason it's called a leopard fist is that if you push it into the ground, it makes a mark like a leopard's footprint.
Regarding the naming and your querie on the 'Dragons Head' fist. If you look in Yang Jwing Mings publications you will see it named for various styles from White Crane to Shaolin and Taiji. It is called Dragons Head but this doesn't mean that other styles might not call it by another name. As I stated earlier I have seen Dragons Head called Phoenix Eye also. I don't think it's an error and I do understand what your saying about the shape mimicking the animal, but variations in interpretation exist the world over.
P.S I wasn't saying phoenix eye was lesser, I just said it was less efficient. No doubt it has it's uses, but I can live without it and get the same job done using palms.
I didn't say that it was ONLY good for pressing and grinding, just that I Don't practice it as a strike.
The only time I have had recourse to use it, is to facilitate a release, in which capacity it works very nicely and no, I wouldn't use it as a strike personally.
If I did I could possibly make it work, but 'spotting' strikes against Pressure points the size of a small coin against someone trying to take your head off are optimistic to say the least within a serious Melee (A whole different thread in itself).
It works much better on the back of the hand than trying to dig a thumb in and as I don't smoke and am not an arsonist, then I don't carry a Bic lighter....
Thanx for the definition of internal vs external arts, but I really don't give a **** either way. I am into external conditioning as a means to internal conditioning, which for me is confidence. My internal art is confidence. Before I can use my tiger's tooth to it's best ability I will have to have confidence in my strike. THIS IS JUST ME, MY PATH AND MY PATH ALONE.
As I asked what are some SAFE ways to condition this strike?
How can I condition my forearms and shins by myself?
I understand the jiben gong is a conditioning method, but what is it. Can you tell me what you do exactly or is it a big secret?
As I said...the Index Finger...now where's your proof for the Middle? Scan it and attach it...I'm not doubting the fact...I just wanna see the hard cold evidence...as proof...I believe in what I see...
Gee...isn't that like saying...'How can you say Dragon Kung Fu...if no one's ever seen a dragon?' or...'Chi? how do you know it exist...no one has seen it!' Get my point?
A lot of Chinese naming was based on mystic creatures...as a symbol of something...usually power...and so forth...Phoenix' are an important part of Chinese culture, just like Dragons...they're just as powerful...so why not name a technique poetically with a mystical power?
Are you sure about that? I disagree...You punch someone's head with a strong fist...the head gets lumps, and the guy gets an aching headache...concusions may occur, etc...the skull doesn't usually win after all...
Circular or straight line...the shorter distance equals the shorter time right? but...the straight line has a shorter distance...so wouldnt' that be quicker? But I'm not criticizing circular motions, because I use them as well...I'm just saying...
Do you always carry a stick with you? And I mean a real stick...not your...so don't be thinking dirty now...
The Phoenix Eye Anywhere is painful...Trust me...it's my style's basic fist...we use it ALL THE TIME...ALL OVER THE PLACE...and yes...it CAN be used ALL OVER the body...It is just as effective on the solar plexus as it is to the forehead or any other hard part of the body!
The phoenix eye hurts alot more...with more damage to the opponent too...More surface of impact, the more spread out the force will be...the less the impact surface...the more the force!
It is the same principle as lying on a bed of nails...That isnt' too hard dangerous...but try lying on one single nail...why? less surface area...more localized force!
Oh c'mon...if you didnt' have to think about it...then why is it that you don't always have a palm? Why is it that when some people get mad, their hands may clench up into a fist? Why is it that new born babies usually have their hands closed and not open exposing their palms? It does require a subconcious and/or concious level of thinking...It is not always there when you need it...and yes sometimes if done improperly with out thinking...Broken fingers may occur!
uhh...Hit anything with the Phoenix eye...HIT THE HAND...THE ARM!...lets see if they'll still be swinging punches then...Once again I say...The phoenix eye is just effective anywhere else as it is on soft areas!
When the Phoenix Eye is your basic punch, you find the phoenix eye most comfortable and most effective to strike anywhere and any direction...it isn't difficult to do.
I don't believe in training in one extreme...so I chosed a style that had a balance of internal and external...White Crane...
Training in one extreme doesn't make sense to me...but training in a balance does...I'm not saying trainign in one extreme is bad, but...your only getting half the aspect of Martial Arts! The other half your to busy dissing it up that to recognize the talents and benefits! Have an open mind! That's what these forums are all about...to come in with an open mind and learn. Help others...and learn yourself...
(The phoenix-eye is my basic punch, too.)
I don't currently practice IMA but do have a growing interest in Tai Chi, however please forgive me for commenting on an area that is largely unknown to me.
A couple of things in your last post made me think 'hang on that's not my current understanding'. One that sticks out is the comment nzric made about not striking a hard skull, rather targetting soft areas.
It is clear that certain IMA masters certainly teach the student to target areas such as the eyes, throat and neck as oppossed to striking the hard skull. The reason for this is that the aim of something like Tai Chi, as I understand it (and please correct me anyone if I am wrong here), is not just to give your opponent a bump on the head, but to seriously damage and even kill your attacker.
Punching someone on their very hard head is not going to be as effective as crushing their windpipe for example. Hence, I believe, nzric's comment about soft targets.
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