phoenix eye conditioning!

Thats interesting, I am aware of this fist in Sil Lum Chuan as being Dragon Head but as far as I know within Taiji it is a variation of Phoenix Eye and does not bear a seperate designation. It may well fall between the cracks of the two systems as some systems have very similar movements going by different names also.

For instance even within the Yang Cheng Fu 108 there is a movement called Stork Spreads Wings. Later in the last 3rd it is repeated and achieved in a reverse fashion and instead named Ride Tiger back to Mountain... it is one and the same movement as Stork Spreads Wings.

Best, Syd

 

Hey Rich.

I'm going to be pedantic here mate. When you said... "Also, while "maximum effort with minimum force" is a principle of internal arts, that also doesn't mean it's internal. It's focused but not internal. If that were the only requirement, a karate chop would also be internal."

I can agree with that because it is a bit different to what I said, which was...using minimum force to achieve the maximum damage.. This is the key element of the internal arts, harnessed through correct bio-mechanics as well as expression of jin and qi.

I just wanted to clarify the difference.

Best, Syd

 

Does it really matter whether it's internal or external? Really when it comes down to it, if you condition this strike properly you will be able to defend yourself VERY effeciently and effectively. There are literally thousands arts and a million styles, so why argue over a name or the use. Why don't we talk about how to condition this strike.

 

hahaha...soo true...
well thank you RubyMoon for varifying my understanding...

But anyways...enough arguing what a phoenix eye is...If Syd wants to believe that the phoenix eye uses the middle finger, so be it...just as long as he can use it...

Anyways...Yes...GoatNipples is right...
The phoenix eye is a great weapon...now to train it...I still suggest the wall bag...have you really considered or trained that?
There are also various Iron Palm techniques which aid in the strengthening of the palms and hands...
Use these techniques to strengthen your hand (feel less pain)...Use the wall bag to get used to punching with the phoenix eye...

Since finger push ups doesn't work for you...try tiger claw or panther paw push ups...or even more advanced...Phoenix Eye pushups...If you can do push ups with the phoenix eye...you have becomed a master of it...They're painful if your not used to it...and hard to do...

But remember...Even if your phoenix eye can't take the wall bag or the push ups...a human body is much softer...and it doesn't hurt as much punching a human than the wall bag!

Imperial_Guardz

 

Does it really matter whether it's internal or external?

Errrr yes it does... internal Martial Artists don't need to condition the knuckle because it is used in an internal way, NOT an external way. It's like saying day and night are the same.

But anyways...enough arguing what a phoenix eye is...If Syd wants to believe that the phoenix eye uses the middle finger, so be it.

It was never an argument, it was a discussion. It is not a belief but a fact, there is a difference. Enjoy your external conditioning.

Syd,

 

Whatever you say syd, If you don't condition your bones and ligaments to take the abuse of using it to strike then how do you plan to prevent skeletal, cartilage or ligament damage. Biomechanics alone ain't ****. It takes alot more than just proper form to prevent this damage.

TO EACH HIS OWN PATH, YOURS IS NOT MINE AND MINE IS NOT YOURS.

We can agree to disagree.

I studied up on conditioning and what I do now is I hit my 75 lbs. heavy bag (which is frozen) with every strike I plan on using. Then I also hit a wide plastic tub of mung beans. I read that the iron dudes would punch this until the beans were powder. The mung beans have a medicinal purpose once they start to powderize.

The iron conditioning program is a long process, each step is 6 months & you should MAKE your own Dit Da Jow.....

1. Mung Beans

2. 1/2 MB & 1/2 small pebbles (non coated like fish tank pebbles but that size)

3. small pebbles

4. 1/2 small pebbles & 1/2 iron pellets (iron bb's only, I forgot why ony iron)

5. iron pellets

This is just the tip of the mountain, I have more info if needed.

 

Uh oh, we have some paradigm failures here...

Whatever you say syd, If you don't condition your bones and ligaments to take the abuse of using it to strike then how do you plan to prevent skeletal, cartilage or ligament damage. Biomechanics alone ain't ****. It takes alot more than just proper form to prevent this damage.

The fact is that the way we strike in Taiji is very different to external martial arts. Striking is whip like and not physical force on inanimate objects. Damage is inflicted internally by a different kind of approach. I won't expect you to understand this but don't try telling internal stylists whats what in regards to bio-mechanics and conditioning as we have our own jiben gong which takes care of this without head butting walls.

TO EACH HIS OWN PATH, YOURS IS NOT MINE AND MINE IS NOT YOURS.

Then don't profess to act like you know
my path...

We can agree to disagree.

Been there, done that...

I studied up on conditioning and what I do now is I hit my 75 lbs. heavy bag (which is frozen) with every strike I plan on using.

So do I, but I do it internally...

Then I also hit a wide plastic tub of mung beans. I read that the iron dudes would punch this until the beans were powder. The mung beans have a medicinal purpose once they start to powderize.

Hey! Your a chef as well, who knew?

The iron conditioning program is a long process, each step is 6 months & you should MAKE your own Dit Da Jow...

Wow, you've got it all worked out. As I said before enjoy your external conditioning.

 

Mung beans make you regular.

Syd - my mistake, it was a bit of a typo and a bit of typing too fast for my brain (my fingers have a will of their own (which is helpful in bagua but bad in a discussion forum)).

And does it matter whether it's called 'internal' or 'external'? Dude, go up to an Aikido expert and say "you're just a wrestler aren't you. it's all the same, you're both flipping people".

 

Thanks Rich! ... the sanity police arrive in the nick of time.

No worries about the typo, I wasn't sure whether you missed me or not and just wanted to make sure either way. I'd hate to be the monkey who claimed internal arts were about maximum force with maximum effort! *L*

See ya Sunday...

 

Uhhh...roight...without physical conditioning, your style would be just as applicable as modern wushu! They don't have to condition because they don't have to make any physical contact with anyone. No matter what style internal or external, physical contact is involved when fighting an opponent. With physical contact comes impact, and with impact comes damage. If you didn't have impact, you wouldn't be able to inflict damage upon your opponent! However, with impact, you can cause damage and pain to yourself as well...Hense we condition to train weak points in our bodies in order to accept the physical outcomes of an attack...to say that you don't have to condition in ANY style is just plain ignorant.
Now are you trying to say that you can defeat an opponent without physically touching them? or that...with your internal arts training...your body can become indestructable...cuz those two statements are so...just arrogant!

You maybe able to mindset yourself to say it doesn't hurt...but in the end...a broken wrist is a broken wrist! and a broken finger, after all, is a PAINFUL broken finger...If you don't condition your body, such as your phoenix eye, you'll end up hurting your opponent, but even worse, hurting yourself. Having a proper basic punch will not only serve you temporarily now, but will serve you a life time! Another view of it is...what good is being healthy through internal means if you can't protect yourself from some Punk on the streets? Balance is the secret of the crane...Balance of internal and external...leading to longevity.



The power of mung beans may or may not be true, but...the concept behind that training is unique and undeniably useful in conditioning of a proper punch.

Using that quote...then the phoenix eye is indeed internal than...Little effort...maximum damange from a punch...yet it does effects of an external technique!
...but still it shouldn't matter internal or external!
Why should it matter? Not like it makes a difference in the technique...If i said baji was internal...would a baji expert start steping like a cat? NO! If I said Piqua was external would they start punching with more power? NO! the style will always be the same style...no matter what name or category it is placed under...
So it doesn't matter what category you place the phoenix eye in...but either way...conditioning is required prior to using it...otherwise it will come of no use to you...except to injure yourself...It doesn't matter how good you are at the internal arts...a phoenix eye will not come of uses to you without it being properly conditioned.

 

I'll say this one more time - it DOES matter what you call it. The term Internal is the description of a huge philosophy and way of training, you can't just use it when and wherever you want to. Like I said - try telling someone who does kung fu that what he's doing is dancing, or tell a tae kwon do person that they're doing karate because "it looks the same", or what if I started calling the phoenix eye a 'karate chop'. I am going on and on about this but if we can't argue the correct semantics in an Internal arts thread of a MA discussion board, where can we do it?

Read some books about the internal arts - do some research. It's not just a word to throw in at random.

And the reason we do internal arts is because there Are different ways of training your body to strike and receive attacks. Getting hard knuckles isn't the only way (even though I know the Phoenix Eye is a good training method) - thats why we train yielding, flow, concentrating chi and above all, whole body coordination and power that's unique to the Internal arts. A punch is not a punch is not a punch.

I know this thread should be about the technique of using the fist (and I think it's a good training method), so I'll stop on the terminology spiel. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

 

Imperial Guardz...

If you understood what "we have our own Jiben Gong" means you would have saved yourself half an hour typing something which shows you don't understand the training regimen of Internal stylists.

Go and do some research... I'm not even going to bother with the rest.

Njoy...

 

I may be going out on a limb here, but isn't the Eye of the Phoenix supposed to be used on sensitive pressure points? An attack to the temple, for instance, doesn't require a lot of bone-crushing force to be effective. Speed is your best friend here. If sufficient speed is generated, the force transferred to the target will be much greater than the impact felt by the practitioner. I promise you that a fast strike to the temple will drop an opponent with barely a tap.

What I'm saying, essentially, is that it shouldn't require very much (if any) conditioning if the technique is used on relatively soft, vulnerable areas. If one must condition their hand to use the phoenix eye in a particular way, I would question whether that was really the best technique for the job.

This is really more of a question than an answer, conjecture rather than conclusion. I am not saying there is no place for conditioning in the internal martial arts, that is not in my field of expertise.

But conditioning the Eye of the Phoenix seems pointless to me.

 

Amen...

 

it sounds like an advanced technique from what i've read (not alot), i think it would be usefull if you're good enough.

 

I study no art, I have only street experience, but I have done all my research. I have no care about internal or external. When I speak in terms of internal and external I mean tissue & bones and their connection to the mind. You must condition your body's vulnerable spots and weapons/defenses. Not to sound like an ass, but just "thinking" about it ain't gonna cut it.

Strong mind with weak body OR strong body weak mind = yin no yang, yang no yin.

A broken bone is still a broken bone after you block out the pain.

 

You still don't get it.... keep trying, it'll come one of these days. I'll repeat for the last time.

"we have out own jiben gong... which takes care of all that (ie conditioning!)("

 

Mr. Nipples:
The main difference that you are failing to account for is the recognition of qi in regards to training and development. What everyone is trying to tell you is that internal and external arts have different techniques for protecting your body and inflicting damage on others. To state that you have done your research, but then show that you do not understand (or perhaps care about) the difference is going to take heat, because thousands of practioners are going to disagree with you. There is only so much you can really understand about qi cultivation without actually trying it. Why don't you check it out a little? If it is all BS, at least you will have proper evidence to argue with.

 

*Applause*

The crowd goes wild!

 

The reason I don't agree with the internal side of things is because I started learning by external. My first real fight my knuckles, hands and wrists hurt. I asked myself what I could do to stop this from happening again. I looked into conditioning and body posture. I had noone to instruct me through meditation. I still don't understand meditation, I do what I do to make the connection between mind, body, and heart, one. I understand chi cultivation as a healing method (as far as stretching and massage) but not as a conditioning method.

I apologize if you fell disrespected by my comments of internal conditioning. I understand that it takes different disciplines whether it be internal or external. Personaly I don't care either way I just want to be able to use my tiger's tooth and not break my finger or feel any pain. When I can break boards or hit a makiwara full strength with it I'll be happy.

I have no certain art that I follow, but I take what is EFFECTIVE from each art. Whether it be a technique, a philosophy or a strategy.

And yes I have done my research. You know as I do you can only learn so much in the internal arts without a "guide". Yet I feel if you have enough experience then you can pick up the external arts pretty quick. I don't ask how did they do that, I ask WHY? I did 2 years of studying philosophy and history.

Before I forget what is this jiben gong all about?