phoenix eye conditioning!

Finger push ups...

 

I prefer doing other hand excercises...I have carpaltunnel and if I do finger pushups it hurts like hell. There are alot of hand excercisy things that work alot better and some hand excercises can even help arthritis and other hand excercises if you start early enough I believe.

 

INJURY TO THE PHOENIX EYE IS USUALLY DUE TO IMPROPER FORM OF THE PUNCH.....NOT THE PHOENIX EYE ITSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

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The phoenix-eye is a very useful tool IMO. Yes, to get at many of the fancy pressure points, it's awkward/nigh on impossible but it's a great weapon against any soft target.

One use for which it is the ultimate tool is as a can opener for getting through the ribs. Strike with a twisting phoenix-eye into the rib cage and it'll find a way through to the juicy bits inside.

Also, consider the actuality - it's not just the protruding knuckle that does the work: the knuckle goes in to the main target and the rest of the knuckles impact just afterwards as the first knuckle forces a depression in the flesh. In the case of an eye attack, the eyball is hit by the knuckle at the same time as the rest of the fist hits the face.

As for the original question, I confess that I haven't really done much work on it except firming up the fist's structure and continuing to explore the different alignments.

General finger strength is a must and clawing exercises are good for this. (I have trouble with clawing exercises because they stretch the skin on the tops of my fingers so much that my cuticles split and I get those painful cuts and loose bits of skin around the fingernails). With clawing you have finger pushups which I think is best starting with middle knuckles taking the weight and moving out to fingertips as you get stronger.

Actual conditioning of the phoenix eye can be achieved by pressing into a wall. Start touching and increase pressure to max over several seconds. Hold it hard and then decrease to tuching over several seconds. This can lead you up to pushups if you incorporate leaning your weight. You can lean against the wall with your fists tucked in and thrust out to push you back from the wall just on the knuckle. I hardly ever do this.

Every time I do some intense finger work, I always make sure I am warmed up and do some chi gung for the hands before and after. One thing I don't want to do is destroy my bones/joints. I mention this because you mentioned nerve conditioning which often translates as nerve destruction.

Well, I have to be back at work.

Rgds,
David

 

As a practitioner of using the "Phoenix Eye Fist", I really resent the corney cheese joke because it was absolutely obsured and immature. If you can not be serious to someone's question, then don't answer it at all.

WHAT IS THE PHOENIX EYE? WHY DID YOU EVEN GO IN THIS THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE...[sigh]...very well...the Phoenix Eye is a rare type of fist used in some Kung Fu styles (such as Southern White Crane, Southern Praying Mantis, Lau Gar, etc.) Although quite well known, many people do not know how to properly use it or make it's fist. The Phoenix Eye fist is a fist which is similar to a normal fist, but with the INDEX nuckle extended and braced my the thumb! The attack weapon is the second knuckle of the INDEX finger!

Partially true...The phoenix eye is BEST used on soft targets because the drilling of the knuckle into the body can penetrate more deeply in softer areas of the body...however, the phoenix eye, if conditioned properly can be applied to any part of the body.

and

I disagree with both of these quotes...but I do agree with FrankZappa's quote

 

yes...FrankZappa's quote..which was...

Now getting back to the original question...

and

No..the Phoenix is a GREAT weapon if used properly...
In order to be able to use the phonix eye with more power, you need to first condition it...
This will take time for progression...Do not expect to be able to throw a full force punch after a week of using it. It takes time to work with your phoenix eye. As in a style like mine where the Phoenix Eye is the basic punch, your phoenix eye will quickly gain strength, but if you rarely use it, it will take much longer.
If you know how to creat a proper fist, you are half way there!!!

There are many methods to train your phoenix eye.
As said earlier...to strenghten the bones, ligaments and joint structure, finger push ups and wall bag punchings are good. With a firmly clenched fist, lightly punch a wall bag, gradually increasing power. Alot of people push their weight on their phonix eyes onto a wall...That is also a very good technique.
What better technique is there than punching a friend (holding a pad of course)...this will get you used to punching straight, not skimming your finger on the pad, tearing the skin off your nuckle.
Finger pushups...eventually leading to phoenix eye push ups can help as well...but by the time you are capable of doing phoenix eye push ups, you should be an expert at using the phoenix eye!

You can eventually punch hard surfaces with the phoenix eye. It will not dislocate your finger if done properly...I have demonstrated this fist to many people before punching the wall or a counter top with full force, adding dents and knicks to it...Pushing a door open with the phoenix eye, etc...It was to demostrated to them, but also to condition mine at the same time.
Punching boxes. I admit I have done that as well. This proved to me that the phoenix eye penetrates in a small area, making it capable of poking a whole in the box, unlike the normal fist, that launched the box across the room dented. The pheonix eye is a great weapon if used well and conditioned well...

...also...always remember...Dit Da Jow is a good aid in training

Imperial Guardz...CYF

 

Nothing against the training, I'm sure it's a great punch, but can someone tell me what is internal about phoenix eye?!

 

G'day Rich

I think *internal* is a bit misleading in this case in that some might consider that it's employment depends on internal training; not the case.

Essentially the phoenix eye (which isn't just the index finger knuckle but which can also be the middle finger knuckle also) within Taijiquan applications at the very least, is meant to be issued against soft targets, such as the temple or the throat and various other select dim mak points.

It's certainly not meant to be used for shots where a palm strike would be common and essentially it is a specific tool to be used for a limited set of circumstances. It's a perfect little tool to get into certain forbidden points similar to the way the boney knife edge of the hand fits perfectly into the neck and up behind the ear.

The only thing internal about it is that it is one of the Taiji fists used for point strikes.

Best, Syd ( BTW* We're on for this Sunday, can you make it? A and myself had Yum Chat on Friday and are planning on meeting Sunday, it would be cool to have you along. )

 

Just think that practicing that kind of fist prevents you from learning all the other juicy ways you can poke, prod, gouge and strike the poor bxxxxxd who is in front of you. And the internal arts are about ways of building your personal health throughout your life, not hardening your body up for short-term profit before your fingers give up from the strain. I'll stop - I don't want to bag Phoenix Eye training, but I don't think it's internal.

(btw - I'm on for Sunday, send me an email. You planning the Yum Chat then training?)

 

It's damn internal when it enters your spleen!

 

Haha man, this is the thread that made me join MAP and I never even posted in it. Haha

 

I haven't ben training I've been out street racing, (much funner)
but now I'm gonna stop tokin & racin and get beck to training.

I don't feel finger pushups really help your phoenix eye or tiger's tooth. What else do you do for the conditioning of this strike.

 

You notice as you practice with the fist that the index finger folds up tighter and tighter, as does the thumb behind it. This process makes the fist stronger.

Rgds,
David

 

...I never heard of the Phoenix Eye EVER used in Tai Chi (I'll take your word for it though)...but one thing I'm sure...Yes there are some variation in the phoenix eye fist, but they still consist of the index finger pointing out...I have not yet heard of a phoenix eye with the middle finger.
Two widely known variation is the thumb supporting your index from the bottom, or from the side...The following images are the 2 variations of the phoenix eye fist...where the thumb supports the index from the bottom, and the side.



What is internal about the Phoenix Eye Fist?

HAHAHA thank you Andy...stole the words right out of my mouth...
Well what is internal about the phoenix eye fist is that very little power is required to cause great damage! When you punch with an external punch, the force is only felt on the outside; You bruise on the outter layers of muscle...When punched with and internal strike, the pain penetrates within...Injuring the internals and not just the externals...with the phoenix eye fist...the external injuries are just a bonus

Now getting back at the question...

Well if finger push ups are not helping...My only suggestions are Hand Conditioning by various methods (such as iron palm training, rice jabbing, etc) and punching of wall bags, punching bags or partnered shields...
Wall bags are your best bet...But you have to work slowly with it.
Going full force on a wall bag is not a good idea if your not efficient with your phoenix eye fist. The Phoenix eye fist requires time to use it well.

 

..I never heard of the Phoenix Eye EVER used in Tai Chi (I'll take your word for it though)

Well you have now. There are many different fists, palms and very secretive
hand shapes within Taiji that most people aren't aware of. Most of these have dian mai (Dim Mak) application and require very little power to apply.

...but one thing I'm sure...Yes there are some variation in the phoenix eye fist, but they still consist of the index finger pointing out

No they don't... there is a Phoenix Eye variation using the middle finger instead of the index finger.

...I have not yet heard of a phoenix eye with the middle finger.

Now you have.

Best, Syd

 

Alot of kara-te guys say it's external because of the conditioning it requires to put force behind it. Alot of kung fu guys say its internal because the damage may not be seen on the skins surface but you can suffer from internal bleeding from a light shot in the right place. Me personally I don't care either way, I can tell you from experience the strike HURTS. Train the strike the right way and you'll make it home to kiss your loved ones the next time some young punks try to mess with you.

Edit: Please don't swear

 

The designation of Internal is totally inapropriate just because a fist, palm or strike is meant to cause internal damage rather than external damage. This is something completely different and misleading.

Internal means to be soft outside, hard inside, using minmum force to achieve the maximum damage. It also means Qi cultivation as in Taiji, Bagua etc. It has nothing to do with a fist.

Best Syd

 

In my old style (Shaolin Chuan) these were two different strikes with different names and uses. When formed with the first knuckle, it is Eye of the Phoenix (or phoenix eye). The middle-knuckle version is called dragon fist and comes from the dragon-shaped arts.

This is just my experience. The two strikes are used differently. Eye of the Phoenix is more likely to be used on sensitive areas around the head and neck, and other vulnerable points that require a small point of impact such as the temple. It is used in the crane form which blends internal energy with quick and precise external strikes. The dragon fist is a little stronger than, but not as small as, the phoenix eye and is used for harder targets, including the sternum.

 

Thanks for that comment Syd - Internal doesn't just mean literally 'inside' the body (but good joke, Andy - I probably asked for that). And the type of damage caused by internal arts on the opponent is just a byproduct of the technique - there's a lot of external damage you can cause with internal techniques as well.

Also, while "maximum effort with minimum force" is a principle of internal arts, that also doesn't mean it's internal. It's focused but not internal. If that were the only requirement, a karate chop would also be internal.

Good posts though, there are some interesting explanations about the technique.