Pekiti Tirsia Kali announcement

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Tagapagbalita, Sep 14, 2013.

  1. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Spanish

    It depends when your mother was born, if it's post-Spanish era, she'll be more familiar with English (American). If her birth is closer to the turn of the century then the likelihood of her speaking Spanish increases (* see below). I don't know when Gaje's grandfather was born.

    I'm confused so is your mom Spanish born? Why the "even before the Spanish got there"? (* ops, my apologies, doing two things at once, so mom's side is non-Spanish, yet spoke Spanish, though not everyone, BUT dad's mom's was Spanish, yet spoke no Spanish.

    Your mom's side conforms with what we're talking about here, the more educated you are the more Spanish you know. But your father's side is interesting, because basically, you're saying that they were Spanish by blood, were landed, but chose to speak Tagalog or Ilocano instead? Am I correct here? When was your paternal grandmother born? Did she have siblings? How old and who retained Spanish?)


    The Philippines didn't have the luxury of highly motivated Catholic missionaries, who taught Philippine indios Spanish, as they did in the rest of the viceroyalty of New Spain. Spanish was taught in schools, the lingua franca for non-Spanish Filipinos wasn't Spanish, hence established class--meaning you have to have had a certain level of education.


    Gaje stated many times his grandfather spoke Spanish. So I'm assuming he didn't mean pidgin Spanish. And because he had access to hacienderos, as you've stated, there's an even a better chance his Spanish was obtained formally, thru school.

    What type of missionary? I'm assuming non-Catholic, correct?


    We're talking here of Spanish learned formally, as in the illustrados, not pidgin or chabacano Spanish. Again, we are talking here about the turn of the century Filipinos. Why would you and I speak Spanish? As for your mother, when was she born? Only a very few people spoke Spanish during that time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  2. kalimutan

    kalimutan Valued Member

    There was a culture before the Spanish arrived, you know. And certain familys belonged to those pre-hispanic ruling class.

    Speaking spanish can be picked up, just as migrants from South America pick up English even without formally going to school. Speaking Spanish back in the day doesn't mean someone must have been educated formally in a school for the upper class of society.

    You're simply assuming a lot about Conrado Tortal. I think it makes more sense that he might have picked up Spanish in his work as a missionary and and was able to communicate with upper class hacienderos as well as the people who worked the land. Hence, he managed the land, I'm thinking kind of like how overseer or a foreman would.
     
  3. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    What kind of missionary?

    Absolutely an overseer is plausible. But my point in the beginning was that PTK and jungle survival are two different things, Gaje now seems to be assuming the survival craft as part of PTK, when this was totally Tim's project.

    As for the missionary work, although these days there's a lot of coordination between lay people and Catholic priests/nuns, doing missionary work for the Catholic church wasn't really that popular back then. So the question is, was Gaje's grandfather a Catholic missionary or non-Catholic, these guys didn't speak Spanish.

    Pinning down where Gaje's grandfather learned Spanish is important, so far your guess is as good as mine--but I've been right about him owning land (how much or when obtained, not sure), which means he was comparably well off--not your jungle survival expert, more of an urban dweller.

    The survival expertise is what we're trying to locate here, Gaje's now assuming it for PTK (as expected), I'm saying it comes from Tuhon Tim's jungle school connections.;)
     
  4. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    on Spanish

    The difference is total immersion. A south American in America is exposed to English. A Filipino indio in the Philippines isn't--his exposure to Spanish is dependent on a variety of variables. Base on Gaje's writings, we know he was educated and spoke Spanish (Latin also, I believe). So the most educated guess here has to be that he learned Spanish in school, correct? He didn't just "pick it up". Ask GT Gaje.
     
  5. kalimutan

    kalimutan Valued Member

    I agree that Conrado owned land, but not in the hundreds of hectares. Compared to the field hand, yes, I suppose he was comparably well off, but not by much, i suspect.

    I say jungle survival skill is something taught in the family. Much of Negros and the Philippines is still pretty wild. Imagine how it would've been back in the day? During WW2, GT Gaje said they were hiding from the Japanese and living in caves. Wouldn't that count as survival situations? Whatever Conrado taught Leo, it more than likely included jungle survival techniques, but who knows what exactly. My own grandfather certainly taught me jungle survival, why wouldn't Leo's grandfather do that with him as well especially after what they went through during WW2?

    I don't think there's an urban dwelling back in Leo's day. It was more than likely all very rural and wild.

    PTK and jungle survival need not be different things. It could all have been part of a set of knowledge that is passed on from one family to the other. The modern iteration of it as associated with the JEST school is certainly credited with Tim's involvement.

    Again, we don't know what kind of Spanish Conrado spoke, it could've been broken conversational Spanish for all we know. If Conrado was studying religion with missionaries he would've had the requisite exposure to have picked it up. I don't underestimate a person's ability to pick up languages and be proficient enough to hold a simple conversation that would appear totally fluent and impressive to the uninitiated.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  6. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Lumads

    I'm sure it's in the hundreds, how much exactly, you'll have to verify on your own, by way of GT Gaje. What would you consider big? 300 acres? 200? 100?

    Yeah, that's a kind of survival, but if compared to what Aetas do at the jungle school, it's worlds apart. Remember, the guerrilla operations in WWII relied heavily on supplies procured from the city, they weren't completely living off the land.


    Did you have to make fire from scratch? Did you master all the plants? I know what you're talking about, and Boy Scouting and mandatory ROTC in the Philippines helps, but it's just not the same as the Aetas or other indigenous expertise--unless you're lumad (indigenous).

    Bacolod was a pretty big town, even at the turn of the century, it's not exactly the jungle.

    That's my whole point here, bro, the Tortals aren't exactly lumads, at best they are coastal folk. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. So we'll have to wait and see how Gaje spins this. But keep your eye on this.;)
     
  7. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    I agree with you on language acquisition.

    But Gaje himself says that he was educated--he credits him with pedagogy. And we still don't know if he was in fact a Catholic missionary, what if he was a Protestant missionary? But the point here is that Gaje makes him out to be an educated, well-off person, a person of standing, why would you assume otherwise?
     
  8. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    That fits his personality doesn't it. Better men would be proud to admit their students surpassed them. This fact shouldn't be a source of pride, it's insecurity, it's a sickness.:eek:
     
  9. kalimutan

    kalimutan Valued Member

    Currently I have 12 hectares of old family land (all that's left), approximately 24 acres, that's big enough for me to not want to walk across. 100 acres or approximately 50 hectares, that's a lot for me.

    Having a pedagogy doesn't have to mean one has had a formal western education. Indigenous knowledge passed from one family to another has its own pedagogy.

    I never got the impression that GT Gaje grew up well off. Conrado Tortal certainly had a reputation because of his abilities and positions he held throughout his lifetime. Chief of Police, that's a pretty big deal, he had some kind of status but they were still working class.

    Have you spent much time with the Aetas to know the difference regarding survival methods?

    You don't know how all people were hiding from the Japanese did to survive. Unless of course you're saying that you know how it all happened back in the day. You wouldn't nor would I. Every area and situation is different.

    You don't know how Bacolod was back in the day. You weren't there, you wouldn't know how it was.

    There's a lot more to GT Gaje than what people know. My point for all of this is everyone wants to assume they know GT Gaje when at best, people only hold second or third or even fourth hand accounts of the man.

    I don't agree with what transpired between GT Gaje, Rommel, The Grand Alliance and Tim Waid. But I think it's in poor taste to bash a man whom none of really know anything about.

    How well do you know GT Gaje?

    NO ONE HAS SURPASSED GT GAJE. Pardon me for saying, but that idea that his students (the tuhons) have surpassed him is ridiculous and laughable. I suspect NO ONE will ever surpass the old man. Personally, sometimes GT annoys me with his quirks, but that doesn't take away the FACT the he is probably the greatest martial artist I've ever trained with.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  10. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Secrets

    In that case he had a lot.

    Gaje himself has stated his grandfather was educated. I don't know how else you can interpret that.

    What did Gaje do in NY in the 1970s? He was 2nd LT leaving college. He's not exactly poor either--but most importantly, he didn't grow up in the boondocks.

    Well I know most guerillas, especially those with comms, didn't have to put bamboos together and create some friction to make fire, they had kerosene, if not they had copra or candles. They never had to resort to living off the land, because citizens helped them out with supplies. That's totally different from the cultural knowledge of the Aetas.

    If there was no difference in survival methods between what our guerillas did to survive in WWII and what Aetas know, there wouldn't have been a need for a jungle school. There's a difference, that's a fact.

    Well, there's pictures. It wasn't the jungle. That part of the island is known for sugar, agriculture tamed much of the land since Spanish time.

    I'm guilty of that, since mine would be tertiary accounts. But you cannot deny a pattern of behaviour here.

    I don't know him well, but a lot can be gleaned from his writings and how he does things, ie, public edicts, pronouncements, etc. example why was this publicized, why were other oustings publicized?


    I've never questioned his skills, bro, only his leadership style and penchant for historicizing.

    As for surpassing, that's the whole point, the mark of a great leader or teacher is how much he improves and imparts to the next generation. If you can't claim anyone has surpassed you, then how good of a teacher were you? The problem with PTK is that there's too many secrets and superfluous bs--short and simple.

    You think that's cool, many of us don't.;)
     
  11. kalimutan

    kalimutan Valued Member

    Certainly GT has improved me and imparted a lot, he's a great teacher.

    No one can surpass GT Gaje not because he doesn't teach or there are too many secrets, but simply because of the depth of his knowledge. He simply cannot give all and our modern ways is not conducive to learning all that he knows.

    In my opinion it will take someone with a lot of time and of considerable intelligence, physicality, and experience to get all that GT Gaje has to offer. That person doesn't exist. Therefore, I believe he will never be surpassed.

    The FACT is you don't know GT Gaje at all and yet you choose bash the man. You don't know much of anything about the man or where he comes from.

    on another note... :)

    There's a need for a jungle survival school because that kind of knowledge has been forgotten by most and preserved by a few.
     
  12. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    1. What great teacher, publicizes and shames former students?

    2. How many great teachers have you trained with that you are able to say for certain that Gaje walks on water. You're playing the comparative game here.

    3. OK, so that person does not exist, but in your professional experience who's closer Rommel or Tim? ;)

    4. As for bashing him, c'mon, if you publicize you have to expect all this. You know the drill.

    Exactly my point, bro, because for guerillas it was something temporary. For the Aetas it's centuries of cultural knowledge, it wasn't something they needed because of circumstances, it's their tradition.
     
  13. SRM_TRM

    SRM_TRM New Member

    Well, I have some points that I would like to share about this issue.

    First, the truth about PKT is that GT Gaje IS Pekiti Tirsia (as Bruce Lee was the JKD, and Imi Lichtenfeld was Krav Maga). He was the one that opened the system for other people, all Tuhons was made Tuhons under his training and supervision so, all instructors are directly or indirectly connected to him. While he still alive or with strength to be the man in front of the system this is how it gonna be. I'll not even talk about his skills. I never met, or hear about, another Tuhon that can keep up with him in skills, even Waid or Rommel. Is not that those guys are not good because they are, but GT is beyond. And, in theory, make your students surpassee you is pretty, but I never saw this happen in any Martial Arts or system. It is just too rare. Even Bruce Lee, that's was a great martial Artist, didn't surpassed his master in Wing Chun, well, this is what we heard about. And, seeing what the others Tuhons can do, it seems that he's a great teacher.

    Second, We don't know what exactly happen in Tim Waid's case, but if I was bet, probably is related with some disagreement between Tim and other Tuhons (The grand Alliance?!), not GT, and probably involves money. The reasons used to justify the case, for me, are not enough! Tim Waid have more contribution for the PKT than any other Tuhon. He seems to be a good professional and very skilled in the system. I hope he can move on and build something good for him. The acknowledgment and training can not be taken!!

    Third, about GT request data and information of all the students, I totally agreed with. They have to be more organized with the system and this will help everyone. About the clearence matter, well...it will just not work. If they keep insisting in this they will lose, for sure, a lot more than some students. If you can't train the system, why you will spend money to attend seminars and trips if you can use the money to do something that you can actually train.

    PKT is one of the best systems of FMA for sure, but there are others excelent systems and anyone can change any time he want and be happy.

    Fourth, what the matter if GT or Conrado did knew/know jungle survival?! What matters is if the program will work and if they can do this right..

    And dear onpoint, what's the deal between you and GT, or PKT? You seem to be doing a great effort to critize him and reply the post of his facebooks just to appoint the things that you don't agree. Nobody have to agree with GT but you're doing this a big deal!! Seems that you have some other problem with him and you're not telling us. Did you train PKT? Did you trained with him? Why you care so much what he did or didn't?

    Well, in the end this thing will affect a lot people that cares and train the system. Some will affect directly, as Tim Waid's students and others, like me, not so much. If, for some reason, I can't train the system anymore I will just look for others systems that I believe that are very good and that's OK for me. While I can train I'll continue to do. ;)
     
  14. kalimutan

    kalimutan Valued Member

    I didn't say he was right in doing what he did to Tim. It was wrong, but I suspect that he wasn't the architect of that mess.

    I trained with a lot of teachers. GT Gaje wins for being the most well rounded teacher of a complete system.

    What is the ideal? My ideal is different from your ideal. I don't understand the system enough make legitimate professional assessment about Tim or Rommel.

    Public or not there's nothing to be gain from bashing the man, but it doesn't mean you can't make your critical perspective heard. Carry on if you must.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  15. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    The matter is that it's Tuhon Tim's project and Gaje's taking it for his own.

    I'm Team Waid, not Team Gaje or Team Rommel.

    Will you be getting a clearance from your country?;)
     
  16. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Security Clearance

    This is where leadership comes in, bro. Whether he was the architect or not, as soon as he saw it publicized, he should've said something. Before signing it, he should've check for slanderous remarks. A wiser, better leader would have solved this matter in house--but that's not his pattern is it?

    If you think it was wrong, why not stand by Tuhon Tim as a form of protest? You gotta stand for something.

    Anyone the same age as GT Gaje or older? What was the main difference?

    OK, in a fight between Tim and Rommel, who to you think would win--you've trained with both and seen them both spar, correct?

    Thanks. As a non-PTK, I think Tim Waid got the raw deal here, that's all.


    You're Team Gaje, we're mostly Team Waid here, so we'll never agree, but I did have logistical questions though from all these new PTK directives.

    1. Will you be getting a security clearance?

    2. If you can, will you be able to share your clearance with non-gov't entities, like PTK?

    3. If you won't be able to procure a security clearance, what will you do?

    4. Would you be open to learning from Tuhon Tim? Thanks, bro.
     
  17. kalimutan

    kalimutan Valued Member

    I do stand with Tim. You don't know me or other protest I've made.

    I'm merely here to say you don't know enough about GT Gaje to bash him the way you've been doing. As a non-ptk, do you even have a dog in this fight to be so vocal as you are? He might have been wrong in the way he treated Tim, but even Tim would tell you he is still our teacher.

    And you don't know anything about the art or GT Gaje personally other than internet post by disgruntled jealous people. So stop bashing the old man!

    Surely you don't think I could tell you my whole training history to tell you the difference. Perhaps someday I could expound on that personally.

    I've never seen Rommel spar anyone.

    Tim is a good friend. I've trained with him since the beginning and he knows he has my support. GT Gaje knows Tim has my support. Rommel knows Tim has my support. GT Gaje has not castigated me for standing up for Tim. Like I said you don't know me, you don't know Tim, you don't know GT Gaje, and you certainly don't know PTK. You don't know anything beyond third hand reports and non-sense that you read online.

    I whole heartedly believe Tim has always had GT Gaje's and PTK's best interest, even if other people has blurred his vision from the perspective. One day GT Gaje will see the truth and realize the students who are truly loyal to preserving his legacy. We owe him that much and regardless of what he says in his midnight rants... he is still our teacher and we owe him the knowledge that we have. Outsiders are not welcome to bash on him.

    I will never need a security clearance bro... that's how close I am with GT Gaje and Tim Waid.
     
  18. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I have trouble understanding this mentality. No style should be just about one person. It should grow and subsequent generations should contribute to it. That makes a MA a living growing thing, instead of stale and stagnant.

    Even with all the Bruce Lee worship, there have been others have contributed to making it what it is. If it stagnated with Lee, wouldn't it actually then not be what Bruce Lee intended JKD to be in the first place? Offhand, isn't Dan Inosanto a name worth mentioning besides Lee? I am sure there are others too.

    Even something like BJJ has grown past the Gracie's. Others contribute to it too.

    Martial arts should not be about a cult of personality of any one person. Even a founder of a style.

    One of my styles, Choy Li Fut, was founded by Chan Heung in 1836. Since then many masters over the generations have continued to contribute to it. It is a traditional style and we honor our lineage holders and traditional teachings. But I am glad that it isn't just about our fournder alone. Or any other one person in its history. That seems so limiting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  19. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member


    1. I can totally respect your loyalty and optimism, I just don't think Tuhon Tim's still in the fold or will be back in the fold. I'm sure his silence is out of respect. But evil things happen because good men do nothing.

    2. Everything I'm commenting on are on Gaje's writings, they're non-sensical, I agree, but they are first hand, meaning he wrote them himself.

    3. And I disagree that these are merely "midnight rants", you're mitigating this for Gaje as a way to rationalize--here's the point, screwing your most loyal shouldn't be OK, ever.

    4. Like the Florida PTK page, I think you're still expressing some denial and maybe still think that Gaje was coopted by sleazier Tuhons--he's not, it's all him, he has the pattern of behaviour.

    5. Bashing connotes a free for all, but I'd argue I've backed up my accusations with evidence, so this is done not so much in spite, but in the hopes that you guys stop all this nonsense. It's been going on for so long, and you guys have been allowing the old guy a free reign.

    If you guys can't effectively counsel the old man, consider this thread a favor. A few hours ago he just posted another silly post about how mystical powers drove out the Spaniards, the Americans and the Japanese. WTF?!

    Well, I know one thing, you're no Ferd.;) You want your cake and eat it too, when the situation calls for choosing sides.

    Look into the Power Distance Index: "Power distance is the extent to which the less powerful members of organizations and institutions (like the family) accept and expect that power is distributed unequally."
     
  20. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Cult of Personality

    That's exactly what this is all about, aaradia.

    But on a practical note, Tuhon Tim was ordered not to use the name PTK anymore, so what's he to do?;)
     

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