Pathwalker Guild

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Saturnine138, Jan 4, 2006.

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  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Finally, the history...

    I have always approached this with an open mind, and indeed some amount of scepticism. I completely understand the doubt cast over any historical lineage of our techniques, training methods and ethos.

    The trouble is, nothing I say will change anybody's mind on this, so I won't bother. All I can say is that evidence of pre-industrial society usage abounds in the training methods themselves, and I have been lucky enough to meet people who have confirmed fighting tradition(s) that do not appear in any publications that I am aware of. Out of respect for those people I won't say any more about it. I fully expect other members of this board to call this a cop-out, obfuscation, an outright lie or whatever, but there you go. I don't expect you to believe me, I'm just giving my honest account.

    Before I got any of these clues to an historical lineage, I just didn't worry about it. the techniques worked, serious people who needed the techniques to preserve their life trusted the training. That was enough for me.

    Oh, and there is nothing "mythic" about the place in Transylvania. I have been there to train many times. I have seen bears and eagles, not wolves or lynx yet but the locals assure me they are there! It truly is an incredible place, and also an inspiring place to train.

    As for "Druids" in Transylvania, what else would you like to call them? "Shaman" seems even more off-the-mark as it has its origins in the Americas, "witch-doctor" has African connotations, "pagan priests" doesn't seem to fit the bill. They certainly did exist though, at least up until the 1930s. I don't have a web reference, but the composer György Ligeti talks about his encounter with one as a child growing up in Transylvania.
  2. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    I find it offensive when people such as yourself invoke the armed forces, police and other public servants to prove your point. The fact of the matter is that many of those that you mention don't even train in martial arts, and those that do can be found participating in just about every martial art.
  3. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    One last point:

    I wouldn't do a push-up or leg stretch in a fight either, does that mean they should never be practiced?

    Ok, I'm done.

    Any questions?
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I was not trying to prove a point. I am aware that there are plenty of military personnel who train in rather unaffective systems.

    I was addressing his point that he uses his training in real-life situations, and he was insulting past and present members by saying that none of us do, or have. I was correcting an inaccuracy, that is all.
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    That's a bit of a strawman.

    Those are for fitness and attribute development and not a technique intended to be applied in a specific scenario.

    While you may try to argue that it is for flexibility there are entry of other methods that would do that without ingraining responses that may be potentially dangerous.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member


    Showing some form of valid proof would change people's mind.
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    There is no valid proof, or at least nothing that would satisfy academic enquiry that I have found, only personal testimony that I have been lucky enough to stumble upon. As that would only constitute anecdotal evidence, it is really pointless to try to argue anything.

    I am not offering proof, I have none that would meet academic requirements. That is my honest answer, I don't expect anyone to believe me, nor am I asking them to.

    This is not a sales pitch, I am merely adding my own personal experience to this thread for the benefit of anyone reading it.
  8. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Nor would I. I also wouldn't use a stereotypical, posed, generic martial arts picture to illustrate a page perporting to talk about effective self defence. The image does not match the subject.

    Surely you can see that?

  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Getting kicked in the groin/supporting leg or thrown to the ground by your kicking leg is usually enough to persuade people that high kicks are seldom a good idea.

    But can you say that they are never appropriate to a situation? That would signify a lack of imagination in my eyes.

    Also consider the issue of balance - if you can perform above-waist kicks in the snow, would that not improve your balance when performing kicks below the waist in any other environment?
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yes, I can see that and I agree.

    I have nothing to do with the website.
  11. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Are you going to try and train techniques for every imaginable situation or select a few high percentage ones or principles that can be applied across the board?

    The question you ask makes me think you're just two steps from living in "what if land".

    It's all about training smart, IMO, nothing to do with a lack of imagination.

    Again there are plenty of other methods which you might integrate into your workout that would cover that. Want to kick like that great but it's when you start working on applying something that you might come unstuck, that's the issue, IMO.
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That is a fair point.

    All I can say is I have never felt the slightest temptation to use a high kick when I've been attacked, nor have any of my students used high kicks during an assault that I am aware of, so I'm not too worried about my neuro-muscular conditioning.
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Guess what my job is sunshine?
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You missed my point.

    I was not calling into question your ability to assess the efficacy of technique, I have no reason to doubt your credentials and I respect them.

    My point was: how many Marbo/Pathwalker trained people have you met, and what qualifies you to say what their professions or experiences are?
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I'll reverse it - how many special forces/LEO/Military/Govt agency members do you (a) know an (b) train?

    Parsimony dictates this system offers nothing until you prove otherwise simply on the basis of what can be discerned.

    I also find it laughable that a secret organization has a website - face it, this is little more than LARPing without the sense of fun
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I've trained with around a dozen. I know a few more. I have not trained any myself.

    How do you propose I prove otherwise?

    When has anyone said it is secret?

    How do you know it is "LARPing without the sense of fun"?
    How many Marbo sessions have you attended?

    How do you explain ex-members with an axe to grind having no qualms about the actual technique taught, other than their experience that groundwork and grappling was neglected? Wouldn't they be the first to say if it was useless and impractical?
  17. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    every decent biomechanist, strength coach and physiotherapist will tell you that training kicks on a slippery surface in attempt to improve balance is not worthy the risk of injury for the minimal reward of slightly improved balance.

    the possibility of destroying a ligament isnt worth it. thats why powerlifters dont squat heavy weights in the snow to improve balance. its just not worth it.

    please take that into consideration if your actually ask students, who may possibly have pre existing knee injuries, to perform high kicks in the snow.
  18. MARBO-man!!!

    MARBO-man!!! Valued Member

    Hannibal - just to drop in here and say what I said before : the physical aspects of the system are really very good and very much NOT LARPing.

    Unfortunately the website you are talking about is indicative of the rather self delusional bunch and even more unfortunately makes it look like LARPing! As in 'are these guys really serious???'

    Stripping out the physical side and looking at that only - for me it has certainly stood up to the test against other martial arts as I said before. The system DOES offer something that can, and has been proven. Unfortunately I can only speak for what I know and what was taught when I was doing it, as it may well have changed in the years since. I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally both trained and trained with people from (and who also subsequently moved into) Military and Police careers. The feedback that I had in later years whenever we met up for a pint was that they had found what they learned 'pretty useful in several situations' - now I know that's not what you would call a glowing reference, but for people who regularly encounter situations where they have to control violent individuals to use what they had learned from the Marbo training, in preference to what they were taught during their professional career training, has got to put one or two points in its favour, surely. Even if you are extremely sceptical !!!

    I think the other website is probably as close to the truth as possible - at least it's honest! As for the other one. No, sorry. Just can't.
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    In thirteen years of training I have not seen or heard of anyone doing our training injuring themselves performing kicks. Nor have I heard of anyone previous to that doing the same.

    I have fallen many times whilst testing my balance kicking on slippery ground, whether that be mud, wet grass or concrete, snow or ice. I have never sustained an injury from it. I know how to fall.

    We train outside in all weather and on all terrain (location permitting, and including indoors, confined spaces etc.), but we do not endanger our students, and I have never seen more than a bruise, nosebleed, and once a sprained ankle in training - either during sessions or members meeting up outside sessions to train.
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    So very few then. Furthermore what academy training have you seen? How can you discern which it was they used?

    I have net literally hundreds if not thousands of me fellow LEO's - I have taught hundreds, I have taught military. My Sifu just returned from teaching secret service in the US and my style was - and still is - used by SEAL Team 6. One of my Instructors has taught Speznatz

    Funny in all the years not one of them has heard of the awesomeness That is marbo

    That suggest (a) ninja über secrets or (b) it is pretty much made up

    Occam is shaving.....

    Post examPles of techniques or in lieu descriptions of same

    Err, all over the site? If it is not a secret why not show some techniques? Oh yeah...because it is a secret

    Not relevant - How you train is not the same as how you focus - Pathwalker claim they teach self-protection; LARPers dress up and pretend to attack elves

    Only if they had a frame of reference otherwise they can offer no real opinion
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