Passed 4th Kyu on Saturday!

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by MrsWong, Mar 7, 2011.

  1. MrsWong

    MrsWong New Member

    So I did my 4th Kyu Grading Saturday. Thankfully the weather wasn't so bad so I got to do it in about 33 degrees (centigrade) rather than the 38 its been for the past few weeks. :eek:

    [ame=""]YouTube - 4th Kyu Jan de Jong Ju Jutsu Grading[/ame]

    The way the grading works is in two parts. The first is a kata of ten techniques. A bit different to the kata done in karate. It's then followed by a reflex/randoori section where the Uke's attacks are signaled by the Sensei behind the defenders back.

    Generally I had pretty good comments from the Sensei's but would love to get back some feedback from everyone here too.
  2. Patrick Smith

    Patrick Smith Tustom Cuser Uitle

    Congratulations, MrsWong! :cool:
  3. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Congratulations! Seems like you did everything required by your teachers and performed very smoothly. You seemed co-ordinated and focused. Clearly you know your material. Good job.

    I would suggest that you consider a few things though.
    • How did you feel about the 'randori'?
    • Do you feel that the pressure provided by your ukes was of adequate intensity?
    • Do you feel that the 'randori' was a sufficient test of your ability to perform your techniques?
    • what is your opinion of the mount escapes you performed in the 'randori'?
    • did you at any point feel that the ukes were giving you the technique without having to work for it?

    I'm not in any way saying this to be negative or to attempt to devalue what you achieved - you have already recieved the positive feedback from your instructors and are asking for the perspectives/feedback of the broader ma community so that is the spirit in which in offer my observations.:)
  4. MrsWong

    MrsWong New Member

    Thanks Killa_Gorilla

    I certainly don't take any offence at your comments, I did ask for it!

    As far as the intensity of the Uke's is concerned I know that the guys tend to go a bit lighter on for me and the other girls but generally the attacks are fairly realistic. it can be hard to find that balance as (to be perfectly frank and probably frowned upon by the other women on here) a general rule the girls can't take the same intensity of attacks as the guys. If I got thrown to the ground that many times by the guys at full strength I can tell you I would not be getting out of bed for a while. The intensity these guys were giving me is enough to leave you exhausted by the end but still able to come back for more in the future.

    The pressure was a bit down on what we have been training, the guys were not 100% sure they would remember the attacks so rather than just going full throttle and attacking me in quick succession they were waiting for the signal from Sensei. I have been training it a lot faster than that for the last few weeks so I know I can deal with it at a greater pace.

    I certainly feel the 'randoori' is a great way to test your techniques. It gives you both a test of reflexes as well as technical skill. The way i view my Ju Jutsu training is as a self defense system and if I'm being attacked on the street I'm not going to know what's coming next so I need to have inbuilt reflexes against a wide range of attacks to allow me to always have something up my sleeve. We have about 30 techniques in each of the gradings from 6th Kyu to 4th Kyu and more in each grading after that so by this stage I have an automatic defense for most attacks.

    The mounts are deceptive in how well they are working. the first demonstrated is a combined hip and elbow strike which is very effective when done at full force but in a controlled situation you can't hit the elbow at the strength required as you will injure your partner. In this case, yes the Uke did 'give it to me' a little but it's either that or order a new elbow to replace the broken one. :( The Hachi-mawashi looks soft but you can't see the beautiful grimace on the Uke's face which i can enjoy from my angle :eek:

    Generally I don't feel that I was being 'given' the techniques. Those two guys are very happy indeed to be spending less time being beaten up by me (until next grading that is :eek: ) and allowed to recover from the bruises gained over the last month or two.

    I appreciate the comments, I certainly don't think that grading was perfect, that's not why I posted. There is plenty of room for improvement particularly in my balance and flexibility (I am not a naturally athletic person as is pretty obvious from my body shape) so I'll certainly be taking all comments on board in order to improve my skills.
  5. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    For what it's worth I thought on your part everything you did seemed totally fine. You should be happy with your performance I think. :)
    I just posited those questions to see what you thought of what you were required to do, if you thought it benefited you in the way you wanted and if you felt it was a true test of your ability to apply the techniques. As you can probably tell I have my own opinions on how effective the testing is but if you are happy with it then so be it.

    Please believe me... those mount escapes are very fanciful. you need to work your ass off to get someone of you in that position, its not just going to happen with a hip bump and a strike to the elbow in reality. Also, when someone wants to stay on you a little pain is easily tolerable. You need to remove them 'mechanically' so to speak using angles and leverage and it's not easy.

    Your reactions are very fast and you seem co-ordinated too but what happens after the initial reaction is as if not more important. It certainly won't be as smooth as the test suggests due to the ukes putting in their attack and then just freezing and letting you do whatever you like.
    What I would say is that if you are really interested in being able to apply those techniques in self defence (and you seem to be) then you might want to take a higher belt aside and ask them to work with you with an increased level of resistance if this doesn't happen already in class (perhaps the test is not indicative of everything that happens in your actual training?).
    If this reaction style of randori (which looks more like TKD one-step than actual randori) is your only form of pressure test and the grading footage is a good indicator of it's intensity and resistance level (for you personally) then you will be very unpleasently suprised if you are attacked for real - which is quite unlikely and hopefuly will never happen but hey, that is what you are training for it seems.

    Anyway I babbled on for far longer than I intended, so I'll leave it at that!!

    PS do judo (the obligatory MAP advice meme) :banana:
  6. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    Part of this is that this is pretty classical stuff - these attacks aren't about someone trying to gain a position of dominance, it's about someone sitting on you and strangling you to death - Uke's weight and balance is different, and the techniques do work. I spent about a year testing most of these techniques to destruction with a 95kg vietnamese dude who was genuinely strangling me and not 'giving me' the technique - and yea, there were many times where I failed to get him off and I had to tap out. And yea, some techiques only really work if you catch the guy off guard. But the majority of it is solid.

    A 'mount' is totally different. One of my old training partners now lives in Sydney and does BJJ - whenever he comes over to train I struggle to get him off - like I said, he sits back and keeps his weight over his hips, and it changes.

    The other part of this - which you touched on Killa - is that this is a grading, so we're still looking to see the technical side of it, not a real scrap. In class when we're not examining you on your technical knowledge of the technique, uke will add as much pressure as tori is comfortable with. Free fighting (shiai) is done at other parts of the syllabus (I've posted some of it before).

    Part of the difficulty with training with 'resistance' is that there is a big gap between resisting a technique and pre empting a technique - of course I can resist a body drop if i know you're going to do a body drop. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very important aspect, but it needs to be done correctly - it's not just a matter of resisting a technique. The more you turn it into 100% resistance, the less you lose the suprise element of real self defence.

    I've had to use my training for real a few times and it's worked fine. The last time was when I got tackled outside a music festival. When I did a shoulder throw the guy went over no problem (screaming like a girl). Why? Because he thought I'd fall over, and I took him by surprise. It's worked fine for many other students as well. Competition training (like Judo) is not the same as self defence training.

    The other aspect (and this often gets touted as an excuse) is that if you train realistic, people get badly hurt - plain and simple. The AC ligaments in both my shoulders are both screwed beyond repair because I was trying to get my way out of a throwing technique, and I've subdislocated a guys elbow because he was resisting a lock and I put it on harder. After a while you realise that style of training has it's crosses to bear as well as it's fruits. I can't defend myself if I'm constantly carrying injuries.

    Where I think shiai is INVALUABLE is the mental side of it - learning to change you're tactics quickly, and move between defence and attack while keeping a level head. This is vital to self defence and I believe everyone should have SOME experience with it (that's why I started doing it). And I also believe i would not have been in a MENTAL state to be able to defend myself as in the above paragraphs if I HADN'T had that experience of someone genuinely trying to level me in training. It just has it's place, like any other excersise.

    I don't mean for this to sound like a counter-attack to your post Killa Gorillaz, I totally respect your points, I just think this needs to be said.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2011
  7. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Hey, Archibald - Is this your school then in the op video? I thought you guys were an Aikido dojo?

    I remember the videos posted before and thought the school looked decent. So if Mrswong trains there then I'm sure she's getting some resistant training which probably makes most of what I've asked null and void.

    I do have my doubts about the validity of the specific 'mount escape techniques' (for lack of a better term) in the video - however my main point was that mrswong should be aware that they will be a struggle and that never in a million years will they work as easily as they did in the test. Which seemed fair to say.

    yep, seen the vids and am all for that!

    With that in mind perhaps it a better testing method would simply be to demonstrate the techniques as in the first portion of the video in order to demonstrate knowledge of the steps/mechanics etc and then timed randori to demonstrate ability to apply properly/to assess overall functional level? it seems the reaction drill is an awkward and less effective mix between the two? What do you reckon? not saying it necessarily needs to change as you appear to train effectively anyway but just for the sake of discussion.

    well... we 'I-method' everything at my our gym and that works perfectly. I do appreciate your argument though.

    I in no way buy into the sport vs street dichotomy. The only difference between the two as far as I'm concerned is objective... method doesn't need to change.

    Well like you said it's mainly an excuse that really. You can still train 'realistically' ie with resistance and be safe and progressive. I saw more injuries in my gendai budo classes due to improper and inexperienced use of resistance training than in my BJJ classes.

    Completely agree.

    yeah, no worries, this is a dicussion forum after all! :D

    I think we're on the same page anyway. Like I said I like the look of your school from videos you posted in the past. The fact your school trains more effectively than the test indicates means that most of my questions to ponder for mrswong are not relevant as she will hopefully be getting the answers from regular training rather than grading. If I had a say I'd run the grading differently... but I don't, so that's that haha :)
  8. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    My totally uninformed comments:

    1. The move at 10:10 was groovy.

    2. The kata guruma at 12:00 was nice - you don't often see judo guys go for the full on standing technique any more.

    3. I think step-sparring with non-prearranged attacks is harder than free kumite because you can't make distance or pre-emptively attack, you're just stood like a lemon waiting for them to throw what they like at you, so from that perspective I think it was good display of your ability to think on your feet.
  9. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Hi 'MrsWong',

    CONGRATULATIONS on passing your grading.

    It's hard to comment without knowing more about your style and what they are trying to teach. It looks like a lot of the techniques are effective self defence moves and a few are more artistic or are to teach principles.

    I particularly like the way you carry yourself, you looked full of confidence. Also one or two of the faster moves looked as if they suited you.

    Anyway. Well done :)
  10. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    Hey Killaz,

    I can't figure out how to manipulate the Quote function so I'll just try my best to cover your points :p

    Yea we're at the same school. It teaches Aikido and Ju Jutsu, I learn Ju Jutsu. The other dude in those vids is Aikido, but they're pretty similar systems and we do a lot of training together.

    1. Fair call on techniques being harder in real life.

    2. I like the reflex method of training because it encourages and trains early, committed reactions - but I do realise it has it's downside because to demonstrate the correct technique you need to 'sit and wait' for the attack a bit. Real fighting obviously doesn't happen this way.

    However I still do believe there's a difference between competition and self defence. Self defence is to train against surprise attacks, and needs to be trained with the surprise element. In competition when you know your partner and are allowed to pre-empt what he does, you lose that element of surprise. Like I said, both methods have their place.

    3. Not sure what you mean by "I-method" ?

    4. Touched on this above.

    5. Good call, resistance needs to be progressive to be both realistic and safe. As I said all uke needs to do in class is ask for more intensity and he shall recieve.

    We're on the same page for most of this, thanks for the mature discussion - kind of a rarity on the web.
  11. righty

    righty Valued Member

    First up, congratulations on your grading. I know how hard it is just to train in that kind of temperature and grade – so extra props there. I’m not in any way qualified to say whether you are at the level you need to be related to your experience – I would trust your sensei on that one.

    The first thing that comes to mind is that sometimes you have a habit of bending down at the hips, rather than at the knees. This means you end up bending over too much and you can’t properly use the strength of your legs or hip movement in the techniques. That first kata guruma is probably the most vivid example. I tend to do this too and have to continuously correct myself though.

    I’m not going to make any judgments because I simply don’t know enough about you and your school and style after just that video.

    Regarding the grading itself I would have liked to see you work more with higher grades in general as they will generally be better able to push and pressure you with control and in a manner appropriate for you experience.

    I don’t really like how they just expected you to pretty much fall over and just give them the mount so easily. This is particularly when you throw them, you tend to expect it to stop their show, so to speak. So they should give you a good reason why you end up on your back e.g. tackled, stunned by a strike, you tripped. This will also allow you to show you know how to keep relatively control as you fall to be able-bodied and conscious enough to actually do any sort of turnover or other defence.
  12. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Lol here's a pro-tip should you need it... copy and paste the quote= and the /quote bits (including the brackets) to the beginning and end of every bit of text you want to address :Angel:

    Yes good point, it does look like it helps to develop committed reactions. I agree with your observation of the downside of the drill too. Maybe to improve the drill you could
    • allow the uke and tori to move
    • ensure uke attacks intelligently and with intent for example in the case of a punch: aim to hit, punch correctly (don't leave arm hanging out to be taken but allow punch to follow it's natural arch or retract striking arm dependent on type of blow)
    • allow uke to intelligently react to tori's technique. If the drill moves beyond the boundaries of the original/intended technique then reset and start fresh.

    That way you would still recieve the benefits of the committed reaction time without the two downsides of unrealistic pressure and unrealistic movement (lack of). Plus it would be a more effective way of both developing and testing functional technique.

    The changes I proposed to the drill still maintain this element of suprise that you attribute to the original format, I think. What do you reckon?

    this :) skip to 2:46 (my coach is an SBG student so we train in this paradigm)

    [ame=""]YouTube - Training & the i-Method - Matt Thornton[/ame]

    you too :)
  13. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    Hi Killaz,

    I like those suggestions - at higher grades this is generally how it looks. Uke will throw a punch, tori will move but if they 'miss' the unbalancing then the arm is retracted and you have to make do with just the body movement.

    No marks are taken down if you didn't get the technique, provided you didn't get hit or choked or whatever, the attack just gets thrown back in the mix later.

    Later grades also follow this 'reflex exam' with futari dori - two person taking. This is a straight up scrap with two attackers - it doesn't matter how many times you get hit or slammed (I got sweeping hipped in my last grading with the full benefit of Francis landing on top of me), you keep going until the instructors have seen enough. It's as alive as they come. I'll take your suggestions into the dojo with me, thanks for them.

    And I like the I-method, it's solid.
  14. MrsWong

    MrsWong New Member

    Thanks for the comments everyone. I was going to do a long reply but my internet went down. So I'm just going to do a general thank you, it's great to have the feedback and to actually see a civil and well thought out discussion. I will defiantly take some of the comments on board and try and bring them into my training more.
  15. Joseki

    Joseki Valued Member

    Well done looked very good :)

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