According to Gen. Choi a I Dan BB should be proficient in the basics AND be able to defend themselves against a single opponent. I think many in tkd may fall short on the last part! JMHO
Yes, I could go for that. However, since we are a school that allows children as young as 5 to start and since we offer Kukkiwon certification, I can understand my instructor being willing to test/promote students who are deemed ready (skill-wise, emotionally, mentally, etc). In the past, a lot more of our customer base was made up of children (and parents too), and one of the attractions of a system like TKD is the ranking system with its many benchmarks and colors and tips and such. I'd rather extend time between belts than add new tips/colors (I've seen schools that use color tips between dan ranks as well). I can't see making students who are "ready" wait for the proper age if everything else is good. Regardless, this hasn't been a problem for us. In the past 17 years or so, we've had almost no juniors really seem "ready" for 1st dan before age 16 (with one notable exception who was ready, and tested, at age 14). Generally, it takes the kids longer to reach the benchmarks than adults, so we slow the gradings down. As they hit their teens, we branch them off into more self defense (and some cross training), keeping them interested until they are "ready" to test. I have a hard time recommending promotion to 1st dan before age 16 (I prefer age 18 personally).
I agree with a lot of this (and the age spectrum too). For 1st dan in Taekwondo, we (our instructors at our school) are looking for several things in general: 1. Proficiency in the technical aspects/skills taught up to 1st dan. We want to see proper chambering/execution/performance of strikes/kicks/etc done in the air, on pads, and on each other. We may also wish to see if you can instruct others on how to do them correctly. 2. A level of conditioning (+ breathing, etc) that will keep you going through the high-cardio of a test plus several round of sparring 3. The resiliency to take a hit and keep going and the open-mindedness of adapting to new scenarios (we throw a few surprises at them at the closed pre-test). 4. A basic level of self defense, including awareness/avoidance, level of force/legal aspects, and dealing with common attacks. It usually takes students 3-5+ years to get "good" at those things. I don't consider a 1st dan an "expert", just proficent with the basics and ready to dig into the deeper side of self defense (and patterns and sparring) now. So, generally after 1st dan is where we start spending a lot more time on the self defense side. At first dan we know they have the basics, can "fight", can adapt, and have a good foundation. So, our 2nd dan (and higher) tests and training focus a lot more on self defense than the 1st dan does.
Sir are you to tell me that your school takes kids at 5 & gets them to wait 11 years to promote to BB? (Only 1 exception!) If so you guys are doing something right & I salute you or bow to you I assume that you are a commercial school, not a dig, but meaning that you are not a small club run out of a basement, garage or Church etc. In other words the owner(s) has rent to pay, along with other bills & needs income to live.
I didnt mean to say "I could be a 5th dan by now" in a boastful way, I meant in time served technically I probably could (this doesn't bother me in the slightest that I am not). To answer 'why not test when you're eligible' in 2000 when my 2nd dan was 'due' I had turned 18 and got my first job/first car and Taekwondo however important to me, my 2nd dan grading wasn't priority to me at that time. Again in 2003 when you could say technically should be the next eligible time to test for 3rd providing I did my second hypothetically, at that time I was at university, I did continue to train at the time but not as regular as with my original instructor. This is mainly where I did the least amount of Taekwondo training from when I started up til and including now. I could go on, but truth is I tested for my 2nd dan when I felt I had met all the requirements for my 1st and I wanted to progress to the next grade. I wanted to learn more like I mentioned i.e patterns. I am not saying in my original post I am at the technically level or ability of a 5th dan, I was just merely pointing out I do have the same amount of training time in as some who have stuck to the minimum time scales. To address 'if you don't feel you're ready to test when you're eligible then something went wrong between ranks' this is not completely true. Do you mean with my training? Something doesn't have to go wrong in order not to test. Majority of the time I didn't want to test. Or I couldn't afford to test - or I just had other priorities at that time. Taekwondo is important to me, but so are family, friends, and any other commitments too. Like I say its not that something went 'wrong' its just that other things went 'right', which meant gradings were put on hold.
I remember meeting an old training partner that I went through the grades with (grade for grade for the most part and took our BB's at the same time) at Seni one year. I'd stopped TKD as a 1st dan at that point (for a more cross training approach) while he'd stayed in and was then a 3rd dan. There was a certain ego driven regret in me that I wasn't a 3rd dan too.
Ha - thank you but a lot of it has other factors involved as well. We do take kids as young as 5 (but if they are not "mature" enough to train, we ask them to come back in a year). The very young students (5-8 or so) may start out only training for portions of a class and slowly build up to a full class. As such, we slow down the promotion system. Our "rule of thumb" has been to consider color belt promotions every 2 months - we have 4 belt colors, each with 2 tips, making for 12 tests (+ 6 months minimum wait time before the pre-test for 1st dan). For younger students (and anyone not "quite ready"), we push this back to 3 or 4 months between tests (sometimes more). Younger children often get caught up in various things like vacations, sports, etc. and very few stick with it to actually be "ready" in the projected time frame. Sometimes they will not "pass" a test (if they don't pass, they take a couple of months and train and re-test for the same level). For all students, time slows down quite a bit at red belt. We push them harder and put them sometimes in the role of assistant. They grade for 1 and then 2 tip red and then have to wait 6 months (min.) for the black belt pre-test. If they pass that, we schedule the formal test for the next month (or longer, depending on what they need to work on). It's long-winded, but very rarely do we get young students who stick around and train regularly enough that they would be ready to test for 1st dan after 3-5 years if they started at age 5. It just doesn't happen. Now, a more typical case would be a 9 year old starting and training diligently with few breaks in training. Realistically, I can see them testing for 1st dan around age 16 if all goes well. Adults tends to be more focused and hit the benchmarks more regularly. A normal adult will normally reach 1st dan after 3-5 years, on average. Looking at it from a different side though, maybe we are doing a disservice, considering how many kids we see drop out by blue belt - few make it to red, let alone black. Personally, I think we have a pretty good retention ratio, especially for post-1st dan though. No, we are a small club. We had a small commercial school but recently closed it and now operate on a college campus. Money generated from tuition and testing pays rent, bills, and such. None of the instructors get paid.
Well Sir you guys are doing it right IMHO! Maybe the fact that you are a small club helps, as big commercial schools I don't think can do it right & make the kind of money/living they want. Disservice: No way! The buzz words in the 1990s were self esteem. So all kinds of fake & artificial things were done to build self esteem. However I for one think that self esteem is built by achieving. So instead of false flattery & the lowering of standards, help young people achieve their potential. Now scientific studies strongly show that self control is a main key to later success in life. It seems to me that your school's program will do wonders with helping youngsters build self control.
Thank you for your honesty. I probably would feel similar. Hopefully you draw pride from your development as a result of your cross training!
Not having the money to test should never IMHO be an impediment to testing. I for one think that a good teacher should be able to find a way to overcome that minor, insignificant obstacle. Having other things go right is exactly the point of TKD's training & life journey.
Because it would make the arts that use belt systems on a level playing field. As it stands, all thinsg being equal (time, training, commitment, skill etc.), a TKD 5th Dan is really only equal to a Shotokan 3rd Dan (I didnt dot he exact maths btw). Why shouldnt 5th dan be equal to a 5th dan and vice versa! Stuart
Is it though... I, like many see it as both a philosophical and physical difference. Whilst I can undersatnd the need for junior grades these days.. just porting it over seems wrong! Maybe its my image of what a BB should represent and stand for.. which is in opposition to the ITF thoughts on it!! The thought of a 9 year old being seen as equal to a 32 year old, adult BB just doesnt sit right with me. Sure he has a different belt, but as you say its simply a philosophical difference - therefore doesnt represent what it should do - perhaps that being an OUTSTANDING Jnr - In all honesty, I think 13 is pushing the boundries for Junior BB.. let alone a full one! Sure, there may be the odd exception.. but that would be rare! Just cos ITF guidelines says 'its so' - it doesnt make it right! You see how this pans out... the 'lower age limit' and shorter grading times legitimises higher levels such as 19 year old 4th Dans or such like! Stuart
Ha.. try telling that to the orgs that make thier living out of such things! No money = no test with them AFAIA!
IMHO a black belt should be someone that you need to take a deep breath in and set yourself before having a fight with them. That was always the case back 30/40/50 years. Someone to be reckoned with. Someone that had been around the block a few times. I just don't see the avergae 13 year old living up to that. A 13 year old Mike Tyson would maybe. But thankfully there aren't many of those.
But should it be someone that another 13 year old would have to steel themselves up to fight with, or someone that an adult would struggle with? Surely that's the key distinction? Comparing a kid to an adult is like comparing an adult to a gorilla (or something).
I dont know if its been mentioned but in some organisations you have to do courses like first aid courses or umpire courses and umpire at competitions or do certian instructor courses and similar things as well as the physical side to gain the next grade. I have seen high grades into all that side but are not that good physically where with others its the other way round. If you just want to pay your money for sessions and train and train hard and are not interested in the shirt and tie side then grades can be slow going. And its not being on a moral high ground of 'giving somethings back',which I have heard is the reason to do all that stuff, because you pay your money to train and might help in sessions where needed.Plus some of those courses can cost a fair bit for what you get. Theres a sceptical part of me that says its about money. The best grading systems are the ones where you show what you can do in a competative enviroment against other skilled people and are given the grade by someone more skilled who sees that improvment in you.IMO. Not what you can do against imaginary people or how you look. Thats unlikey to change in TKD now unless its at individual club level.
Are you trying to say that ALL the other MAs use the current Dan level as the number of years required in minimum training time for promotion? If that is true I can see your point. However TKD can't seem to get its own act together, never mind try to coordinate with other MAs. To me each system is unique & while they all share common characteristics, they are their own systems with different goals & various ways & emphasis to achieve those goals. So to me it wouldn't work. Therefore for me I adopt the ITF system not because the ITF says so or that is what Gen. Choi wanted, but rather from my diligent & intensive study of the entire system, it makes sense, works & is what will help develop the goals of the system. Things need to be tweaked, but the timeline mostly are ok IMO.
Much of this discussion is a waste of time, as it is more like comparing apples & oranges. Yes you do have a different concept of a BB, that is why it is apples & oranges IMHO! With me either! A 9 yr old BB & a 32 yr old BB are not the same, they are NOT equal. We agree! Where we disagree is that you seem to be saying that a 9 yr old has to be equal to a 32 yr old in order to be a BB. I disagree, as to me a BB in ITF TKD is about more than just the physical. Therefore it is apples & oranges. The reason why 13 works for Gen. Choi & is the ITF standard for when a Jr. BB is no longer junior, is that a 13 yr old is no longer a child. They have passed to the TEENage years. There are obvious differences that society in general sees when it comes to age. Infants, babies & newborns are different from toddlers, who are different from primary or elementary school age CHILDren. TEENagers are in secondary school. While the age of 18 is the age of majority in many areas or societies there are exceptions. Even look at the MPAA movie rating guides. They use age 13 with the PG-13 rating. Again we agree. Just because it is what they use, doesn't make it right, it just make it their standard & I think it works given their stated goals & why their founder gave the world TK-D. By the same token, making a minimum age for BB 21, 18, 17, 16 or whatever the cutoff is for a specific school, group or org, doesn't make that standard right either. It seems to me the best standard is that which helps you move & guide your charges to where you want them to be. That is why you can't cross compare apples & oranges IMHO! I am not sure if I have a big a problem with a 19.5 yr old 4th Dan, as I do with a 19 year old International Instructor. Here I lean towards a 21 or even 25 age limit/requirement.
Quote: Originally Posted by TKDstudent Not having the money to test should never IMHO be an impediment to testing. My comment has nothing at all to do with orgs. While I do not wish to defend orgs, it is a reality that orgs need money to survive, all orgs! This goes for churches to hospitals etc. For a MA org, the principle revenue generator are BB cert fees. In the case of the ITF they have school plaque fees, seminar fees & very little else to make income from. So I have no problem with any MA org charging fees to emain a viable org that will host WCs, offer certification, training & other events that allow students to gather, meet new people & gian new experiences. That to me is all good! But to my point: (Which I am sure you will agree!) A BB student is someone with whom you have trained for a prolonged period of time. Over the passage of time that you have trained this person to this special rank, I am sure that you will have come to know them & have built some type of bond with. As a result, I am sure that most fine instructors, if they were true teachers, would find a way to come up with the money to help that student progress & promote. Even if you did not have the money yourself to give them for the test fee, maybe you could find them a sponsor, a job or let them work off their fee somehow by working in the Dojang or handing out literature promoting the school. What if they were to bring in 5 new paying members to the school? Or the like! All I am saying is that money should not be an obstacle & while sadly it is, as we must face reality, I am sure that dedicated instructors like yourself can find a way to overcome these obstacles. Don't you?
