I can't pretend to understand it myself. I do think National Pride is what really propelled Taekwondo to the heights it is at now - Koreans were willing to band together and sacrifice to spread the art and eventually push it to the Olympics. The downside is that is also generated a lot of money and people don't wnat to lose that. Right now, the Government sits tightly with the Kukkiwon and they are watching Taekwondo produce a lot of money all around the world - with people willing to send those $$$$ straight to the Kukiwon in Korea. If that were farmed out to various places around the world, a lot of these guys would lose out on a lot of cash...
to get back to my question, is it reasonable and acceptable to achieve 4th or 5th dan in 20 years or so when beginning tkd at 6 years old? doing tkd in the typical 3-5 hours a week seen in the west i mean. also, someone mentioned skill level. IS the skill level of a 4th or 5th dan in tkd the same as one in karate or jiu-jitsu. all things being equal, of course. i mean, if the tkd gets his 5th dan in 20 years but the karateka takes 30, assuming the same training schedule, who is better trained and more skilled? i use karate as they are similar.
It was mentioned earlier about 1st. Dan Black Belts running their own schools. At the school that I was involed with, a 1st. Dan could open a branch school - ie. a club in a small community that was unable to justify the expense of operating a full time school, that met a couple of times a week. However, the instructor could not test or promote the students. This was done by the Master level instructors.
No, not really. (I would note that even in Korea where you train daily most kids are only training an hour or so a day.) Even if you start at a young age like 6 you have to realize that the mental maturity just isn't going to be there. You might "have your time in" for 5th dan when you're 20 or so, you might even be able to perform the physical techniques very well, but are you a good instructor? Do you know the philosophy your art teaches? Do you show a greater level of mental maturity than the average 20 year old? KKW TKD can speak for itself on some of these issues. Gen. Choi was pretty explicit that physical ability wasn't the only thing that needed to be taken into account when prmoting students. StuartA also mentioned that time in grade figures are minimums. It will depend on the person, of course. In general, however, the more training time (not just time in grade) one puts in the greater skill level they will have. Is it possible a TKD 5th dan who has trained for 20 years is better than a karate 5th dan who has trained 30? Yes, certainly. If they put the training time in. You also have to ask, "Better at what?" Each art has different training emphases. Taekwon-Doin are gong to be concentrating more on kicking, for example, than the average karateka. Pax, Chris
Getting back to your question. I think people deserve the rank they have worked for. An Instructor I know put his kids through thew ranking sysrtem really fast. I mean your talking 12 year old black belts, I used to be a bit like................................... I think one of them is 16 and is 3rd dan now. So in this instance its a bit like does the that belt resinate with the skill level of the individual. Another problem here is whoes to judge? If he's turning out high quality students and he has a decent member size. Dont really know what else your expecting to hear....... My "opinion" would be - 1st and 2nd dan xx to 18 3rd - 25 4th not before 28 then after that I think its impossible to make a general sweeping statement. Raz
Yes. Most programs I know of take about 3-5 years for 1st dan, 1-2 for 2nd, 2-3 for 3rd, and 3-4 for 4th... so it would take about 10-14 years for 4th dan and 14-19 for 5th. Keep in mind that in Korea and in the US, there is quite a time (and money) commitment to reach these levels. Very few people stay on to those levels, hopefully they are the dedicated and the talented. Hard to compare - also it depends on what you are comparing. Inidividual instructors will be more/less talented in various areas. It's a very subjective question and I doubt you'll get a very satisfying answer. To give a "personal experience" answer, I will say that I've been on the mat with TKD black belts from 1st to 9th dan and I've been on the mat with Shotokan black belts 1st to 4th dan. We've also sent somoe of our WTF black belts (1st-4thdan) to Shotokan tournaments (point-stop). In general, I thought the skill levels and performance were pretty similar.
Ok I am a little confused, as wouldn't that money still be going to the WTF in SK? What is the difference if the cert says WTF or KKW? The money would still be sent to SK, right?
With Gen. Choi's vision or directions, one must be at least 9 years old to earn a I Dan BB, but then could not be eligible for 2nd degree until 14.5 years of age. You see technically an ITF BB is considered a Jr. BB up until the age of 13 & they should wear a half white & half black belt. When they turn 13 they simply switch to a full color BB, the cert is the same. We do not use Poom Certs! But at 13 the time waiting period or training time for 2nd degree starts, which brings up to the minimum age of 14.5 for 2nd Dan. The maturity level for a child is different than that of a teenager. Since the teen years start at 13, this is the time or age used for a full BB.
As you said, all things being equal, the karate student would be, simply because they have trained 10 years more! Isn't that obvious? I wouldn't get caught up in rank or belts. Think of it this way: No style ever had belts or ranking system. All they did was train, no promotions, no tests fees, no belts etc. Me & you are equal in every sense. We train the same amount of time & put in the same amount of effort. But you train 30 years & I trained 20 years. All things being equal, except time, you should be better trained & more skilled. Doesn't that make sense? Then someone can say, oh he is at a 30 year level, 10 years ahead of my lower level!
Usually anyone can run their own school. All they really need is students that are willing to train under them. Sometimes orgs have rules as to who can test, teach etc.
Yes I agree. Now would one be comfortable with training under a 20 year old 5th Dan? I guess we could find some. But if you look to MAs for more than kicking & punching fighting sports, etc. you may desire someone a bit more mature & experienced to help in those other areas.
Well, the tkd school I want to go to doesn't start back until the 11th but the instructor/master is having a small class this thursday that he said i could check out. So i'll be doing that and if I decide to go with tkd at that school I might start another thread once I get into it a bit. Thanks for the insight folks.
Some years ago I ran into a IV dan who was 17. Maybe he was a technical expert, but I don't know (he was athletic, that's for sure, but I mean more along the lines of having an excellent grasp of the minutiae of Taekwon-Do techniques). But the fact is, he acted a lot like many other 17 year olds. If Taekwon-Do, or any martial art for that matter, is about more than being able to do the highest flying kick then perhaps it wouldn't be so bad to wait before promoting someone even if their "time is in" (which, in this case, seems unlikely in the first place but it wasn't up to me to ask). Wasn't Scott Sereff 30 when he tested for V dan? At the time it was noteworthy because he was the youngest V dan in the ITF and that's 10 years older than what you mention. And your hypothetical V dan doesn't have a trailblazing instructor like now-Grand Master Sereff as his father. As time goes on it has become more and more common to see news blurbs in Taekwon-Do Times and other magazines about someone being promoted to black belt or some senior rank at a younger and younger age. I sometimes wonder if the article is so much about the noteworthy accomplishment of the person being promoted as it is about the fact that if you send your 4 year old to a particular school they can get a black belt by the time they're 7. On the flip side, I am sure there will be many people who will say "rank is meaningless." I am not so sure, to be honest. I will not say it's the most important thing in martial arts. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But I will not say it s unimportant, either. Pax, Chris
Totally agree.. its not the most important thing in TKD.. but it makes TKD look like a crap art for kids only! Stuart
The fact of the matter is, WTF is a sport governing body for the sport aspect of KKW-TKD. KKW is TKD. They establish the standards and requirements for one to move from white belt on up. WTF sets standards and rules for competitions. The reasons for the SK government getting involved in KKW affairs goes a bit beyond in-house scandals. If it was a "money" issue, they would be better off having WTF merge into KKW, not the other way around. How many of you are KKW certified black belts? Now out all of you who raised your virtual hand, how many of you fight on a national and internation platform where WTF membership is required? I am guessing a few of you put your hands down. The point is that the KKW generates more revenue that WTF. More people go to Korea to visit the KKW, go to the KKW FIC, or go to test at the KKW than go see anything WTF related. I forgot the latest statistic, but KKW has a huge impact on the reasons many foreigners visit SK.
I don't know about other TKD organizations but according to Article 8 of the Kukkiwon regs., you need 6 years from 1st dan to 4th dan and be at least 15yrs old to have a dan rank. If I understand correctly, you can only have poom rank before 15. Having said that, I believe I answered my own query. http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp#08 So maybe I should do a bit of independant research before I start asking questions that really have no definite answer.
They would be the same in skill as you mentioned. Just because it took me 20 in system and 30 in another doesn't mean longer is better. I got it 20 years...the next 10 years I am now practicing as a 5th dan in TKD while the karate guy is practicing as a 4th dan. After all, as you pointed out, they are doing the same amount of classes and spending the same amount of time in the classes.
Yes I think sticking to the 9 year minimum age for a BB & 14.5 years for a II Dan BB is a good start. With the ITF timeline this would bring us to 19.5 for a IV Dan. But then I think to wear the stripes on the sleeves & legs of the DoBok that international instructors are entitled to wear, should be limited to age 21 if not 25. I for one think we need maturity in our instructors.
Please do not misunderstand me or sidetrack the focus. I think most here on the board know the difference between the WTF & KKW. However I think most MAists, including TKDin do not. To the average TKDin, they know what is taught them in their respective schools. For those that expand, via reading mags & forums like this, they come to understand that there are 2 main TKDs, ITF, the 1st & WTF. Yes the proper term for the ITF is Chang Hon & for the other it is Kukki TKD. My point was that for decades the KTA, KKW & WTF were all headed by the same person. The orgs were very much connected. It is post scandals that they have separate leaderships AND their missions or focus have been noticed by some of the average TKDin. Please feel free to expand about the SK govt's involvement in TKD & the other reasons. You make a great point about the premier or more important status of the KKW over the WTF. But my point remains. TKD is a brand name for SK & it is the Olympics that sets it apart from all other Asian MAs except Judo. however can't you see that it is just labels to most. If you rolled all the responsibilities of the KKW into the WTF it would work just as good, wouldn't it? If I value a BB cert coming from SK, does it really matter to the average person what orgs name is on it? People value the KKW because of the fact that it is the Mecca of tkd in SK. roll it into or under the WTF & few would even realize it happened. I believe the wtf will be issuing their own BB certs in the future. I believe that the regional training centers the wtf is setting up & the new tkd park, along with the WTF moving their hdqtrs to Switzerland will make the KKW somewhat obsolete. The question for me is what will they do with the beautiful KKW building? It is historic & I hope that they don't knock it down & make condos! I also heard that they were going to build a new one on the site. That would be a mistake, as I would prefer it that it only under goes a renovation. It is too important to disappear or change IMHO.
