Part 4 - Internal and External

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Fire-quan, Jun 15, 2009.


    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    For John

    Yeah. It is probably Master David Chin. He trains very tough students and makes them into good fighters. I was in awe of his students fighting power through stories back in the 80's. In fact it was watching one of his students, while deployed with a Special Ops team in Honduras, that I saw the beauty of Tai Chi and was told I needed to learn it well. I am still on that path... lol.

    I met Master Chin for brunch a few years back. He is training a former student of mine in Hung Gar and I believe Yang Style Tai Chi. I have not seen him in quite some time but I think Gary has talked with him and he is well. How is Ya Ya.

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    To El Medico

    Hey thanks for the welcome Bro. It is nice to be here. I love your motto at the bottom of your post, Very appropriate for the last few posts. It could have saved me alot of typing... lol... You are right about the part that says many non-contact skills are accomplished only with learnered partners. The scientific paper I was readinging about, that explained the science around what Master Ma Ya Liuang presented in the Pushhands video, said that complex motor functions require mental mapping and modeling which is obviously done through practice and repetition. As an educator familiar with the systems approach to training and a former research student of enhancement of human performance through training, (patterns and pedegogy of creating expertise) I have come to comprehend how emotional content, physical posturing and mental focus bring the nervous system to such situationally high peaks of performance.

    IMA Tui Shou or Chi Sao adepts must have incredible high numbers of mental models and the mapping to access them through and by the nerveous system. I hypothesize that the chin connection comes from emotional, physical and mental commonalities established through long hours of similar training amoung adepts. However, when one adept has cultivated the technique to superior levels we witness these feats of non-contact control.

    Now about being able to do these things to the uninitiated fighter or belligerent. I agree with you there that non-contact control in the manner of what Master Ma presents is rare if existant at all. In fact I am sure that technique of non-contact control would not work at all. However, there are other types that are probably more lethal and so common that we fail to think of them as non-contact control techniques.

    Predators have the ability to freeze their prey. I believe that the control factor here begins at the emotional levels and spreads to the other expressive faculties where a dominant presence is the catalyst. Physical speed or violence of action prior to contact is another catalyst if the physicality is affected first which normally manifests a delayed reaction. Even still more akin to what the article talks about concerning vision yet another catalyst if the mind is attacked.

    Of course there is a dominant-submissive, relational quality to this form of non-contact control but the ability is real and very lethal. I have experienced this phenomenon on both sides of the relationship. I have felt the connection to my opponent emotionally, physically and mentally as a partial paralysis in the form of fear (emotion), shock (physical) and confusion (mental). Like the scientific paper stated the paralysis occured just before I was to take action... Like at the instant before I just knew it would not work. I no longer had a calm mind because of this and could not follow his intent nor relinquish my own, as the masters say in the treatise but to my disadvantage. I knew at that time of the event that the source was either from my opponent or from me to my opponent. In this state I have found that my normal ability to defend myself or for the opponent to defend himself, (whether we knew each other or not, or whether we knew the same style of not) was diminished sometimes to the point of being feeble, actually throwing strikes but purposely missing the target and not knowing why, and falling to the ground in anticipation of a blow yet to be delivered. All of these reactions totally not in the normal reaction spectrum of the practitioner affected.

    I believe this kind of relational reaction in a combative situation could be classified as non-contact control. In an UFC MMA match there are two examples of this phenomenon: Anderson Silva vs Forest Griffin and Lyota Machida vs Thiago Silva

    Again thnks for the welcome..... G
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2010
  3. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    The way Silva finished Griffin has to be one of the all time classic finishes... That guy is amazing!
  4. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    Dude, you talk too much smack about internal martial artists.

    Check it. Taiji is an excellent fighting style. It's useful.

    We are here "to be". the only other choice is "not be", and we're already that anyway. You're being a guy typing. I'm being a guy with opinion. I am the typing, the typer, and the opinion. What's wrong with "being something?" eternity is a really, really long time.

    Internal martial artists cultivate chi because it makes us strong and healthy. Sure, it's a totally subjective experience, but it's one we can all have. My friend, you sound like you're really frustrated. Don't be! People just "do things." Xia warrior? Dang dude... mad people just like doing the taiji thing. It gives you these awesome like... chi experiences, you know? tingling and all kinds of stuff. Practice your prebirth breathing! Spin the ball, fill your "gas tank"! you're gonna see great results. Of course, you're not like a video game character, you know? But when I push hands I knock my brother waaaay off balance without using strength (Li, you know)? I just kinda fa jing him back into the sand!

    Don't take yourself so seriously! It's all in fun.

    Last edited: Apr 13, 2010

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Provacative Tones... Training for the Opponent you can't beat

    "There are those who shift to ‘internal’ martial arts because they’ve been pushed out of the real fighting market by real fighting styles. Teaching taiji or ‘internal’ styles is a way to still make money, and happily catch up all the people who aren’t interested in fighting, and at the same time never have to get involved with the people who are and might embarrass them."

    I have recently experienced this observation. It is a dangerous road to travel given the fact that there are internal practitioners who are very capable of demonstrating proficiency in Qigong, Taiji, Xingyi & Bagua as a single complete system of martial arts & science. In the presence of this teacher I made myself endure such incompetence while surpressing my desire to... make my ability known. It was a good lesson in control, humility and introspection.

    My recent release of my book, "The Art of Western Tai Chi Ch'uan" has me planning to do book signings and the need for me to be in my best form and function is very important because I am an Internal Martial Artist. I now study under Grandmaster & Dr. Gary Stier, OMD and as I state in my book I train to beat my worst knightmare of an opponent. The efforts helps me know which challenges I should accept and which I should bow to. In the pexecution of this methodology I have found the internal styles of training mind, body and soul finds no grearter enemy than the one I create by situation, denial and fear.

    The provacative tone of the Blog author is hard to miss. But it does make one seek the best within and make sure that there is sincerity and honesty in ones professed training regimin. At least this is true from my gut reaction to his posting.... G
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2010
  6. LoSt eGo

    LoSt eGo Undervalued Member

    excuse my newbyness, but what does quan mean?
  7. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Fist, punch, boxing.

    It denotes a style of boxing, so Tai Ji Quan is Great Ultimate fist/boxing

    or, as I like to think of it, Alpha and Omega Boxing.

    (and Chuan as in tai chi chuan is just another pronunciation)
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2010
  8. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Alpha and Omega?

    You found the secret scroll on ancient Greek T'ai Chi?!?!

    For a flat fee I'll write one of the introductions for your book.

    Lost-he meant Tai Ji Quan.Spelling errors,often the result of getting hit in the head too many tims.
  9. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Or of posting while drinking beer!

    So, if you don’t like Alpha and Omega, give me your interpretation of "Great Ultimate".
  10. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member


    Primordial Fart
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2010
  11. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Soooo.....what was there before the edit?
  12. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I had a selection of them, but that was the clear winner..

    let's see there was,

    Uber ying yang seperation (not bad).. Grand Pubah and Big Shebang. See - rubbish!

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Well hello room... I guess I am reborn into MAP..... How is everyone?

Share This Page