Page 3 -Smut Or A British Institution?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Mangosteen, Jan 20, 2015.

  1. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

  2. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    You see that's exactly the sort of argument that was a common repsonse to that story and it completely misses the point.

    There is no way...not in any way shape or form...that guy just picked that shirt at random. Just one shirt among many he just randomly picked out the door in the dark. Not a chance.
    He deliberately picked that shirt knowing he was to be filmed and broadcast across the world. And no one took him to one side and said "You know what Matt...ditch the shirt...it's not appropriate to wear to work let alone as a rep for this project".
    He tried to make it about how edgy and wacky he is and it backfired.
    It's not the shirt that will prevent women getting into STEM. It's the cultural and institutional sexism they will encounter every step of the way.
    The wider context you mention is wider than just the shirt and wider than just that one science project Matt Taylor was involved in. It's about all the Matt Taylor's out there. All the STEM management structures that allow the Matt Taylor's of the world to create an environment that is not conducive to women getting a fair crack of the whip.
     
  3. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    it's more about alienating young females. "oh look at this scientist who did awesome space stuff! i wanna do awesome space stuff like him" *sees him wearing sexy lady t-shirt and wonders if they'll be taken seriously*

    it was a small issue blown out of proportion but it's still an issue (see: "not as bad as" fallacy)

    he probably didnt think about what he was wearing and the far end of the feminist community took it really far. but at least issues of gender in STEM reached the mainstream media.

    yeah but its the sun so the primary demographic is scum :p
    again i have no problem with boobs but its a joke to provide "news", not even try to be balanced and providing hardly any aspirations for females apart from modelling. but it is owned by murdoch who owns fox which claims to be "fair and balanced"

    at least we know where the sun stands.

    sorry i didnt understand this point.

    oh absolutely. cant ban it, wouldnt want to. but i can be as british as possible and complain about it :p
    all news is unbalanced to some extent but the sun is blatantly so and doesnt even try to be news.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  4. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I know this is a fallacy, but if its was a common response to your argument do you think there might be a reason for it?

    And we know this how? Far as I know we have no idea what his usual clothing choices were.

    No I imagine everyone was too busy trying to land a probe on a comet and considered that a bigger priority than what someone's t-shirt was.


    Its about all the people who have bad t-shirts and like wearing them? I apologize for being flippant but what I took from that is that there is a institutional problem with sexism in STEM and you've taken that issue and decided to unload it all at Taylor and his wardrobe choices. Essentially that he's been used as the whipping boy to make a point about sexism in STEM that has nothing to do with him personally and that his shirt, as you've acknowledged, isn't adding to it if you agree its not going to stop women going for careers there.
     
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    See my post above. I don't need to think about it because it's not what the discussion is about.

    Are ethnic minorities put off going into the police (for example) because they hear the odd harmless joke about curry?
    Or is there much more at work that means the whole experience is not as open to them as it is non ethnic minorities?
    Stuff that is even out of their control (the decisions of their superiors)?

    Do you not see how expecting women to suck it up and keep quiet about things they don't like if they want to get on in their chosen field IS the problem. Not the stupid shirt.
     
  6. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Goodness me, this thread is moving too fast for me to keep up with! :p
     
  7. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    The thing with inequality and privilege is that those who benefit from it typically can't see it.
     
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    The reason I think it was common is that most people don't understand what the annoyance was really about (sexism in general) and just saw it as "some bloke getting some flack over a shirt on his special day".

    It's about sexism. However it manifests. It's about employers skimming over female applications but reading male ones. It's about women being expected to make the tea in the lab. It's about cat calls or comments when women enter the lecture theatre. It's the whole picture that is made up of lots of little bits of sexism.
    And you gain insight into that bigger picture (because no one can see the whole thing) by specific examples as and when they become apparent.
     
  9. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    The thing with privilege is that people looking for it can find it anywhere :p
     
  10. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Except men aren't socially disadvantaged by cultural objectification.
     
  11. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter



    All of which has nothing to do with him wearing a specific shirt and makes me far more sympathetic to that first quote. The annoyance was about everything in the second quote and they took it out on the guy who really didn't have anything to do with it. Its like taking a sledgehammer to Jim Gordon because you don't like Batman.
     
  12. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    However that's more to do with our society than anything to do with feminism. In a world where 200,000 mail readers can complain about a radio show they never heard on air and cost you your job, he got off pretty lightly.
     
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    He's part of the problem. Clearly. Sure he became a bit of a poster/whipping boy for sexism in STEM (which I agree was probably out of proportion to his personal level of sexism) but that's what you get in this day and age with the internet.
    The level of the reaction wasn't due to some feminist vendetta against Matt Taylor but a by-product of the very media structure Matt Taylor was using to promote the project he was involved in.
    Next time he (and any other scientist that saw the reaction) will think twice about how they present themselves to the public when trying to promote science.
     
  14. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Probably out of proportion? I'm out of this one mate. Me and you are so far opposed in how we view the reaction he got and whether its justified to use him as a whipping boy there's no point continuing :)
     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah OK it was out of proportion (but then it was a very visible example...so maybe it needed to be) but that doesn't counter the central points put forward IMHO.
     
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    You see I think some people think there's some sort of feminist organisation.
    There isn't.
    He became a whipping boy because lots of individuals gave him one whip without consulting the others. Small individual acts of complaint that added up (much like the small individual acts of sexism he represents!).
    Not because anyone organised the whipping.

    If women can't complain about small examples of sexism that add up (and if they do they have problems, can't cut it etc) then he can't really complain about small examples of complaint that add up either.
     
  17. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    And that would be considered negligent child abuse.
     
  18. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Also it's hardly a feminist thing. Posting a video saying that tropes disempower women leads to a concerted hate campaign where people bombard you with threats of rape and murder.
     
  19. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    the argument that he just put on clothes and was more concerned about landing a comet is strange - he knew that he'd be interviewed and if not that, he knew that he was going to work. it's just not appropriate work clothing. the women i work with would be offended if i wore that shirt to work.
     
  20. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think the argument he just put on any old thing is just falling into the "scientists are super intelligent but socially inept nerds that even need help dressing" stereo-type.
    Hell I work with plenty of socially awkward people and none of them accidentally put on clothes they didn't mean to.
     

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