Original Kata's (WJJF)

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by turbine, Jul 7, 2015.

  1. turbine

    turbine New Member

    Hi all,

    I have seen numerous variations on Kata's and understand how and why they change. What I am looking for is any source material of how the original Robert Clark ones were (with it there is a good chance of seeing what is changed and what was originally the way).

    Does anyone have that info and can share or know a good source for where the original katas can be viewed?

    Thanks in advance peeps.

    Turbine
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Most of the WJJF videos can be seen on YT - they don't get better with age either

    What kata in particular were you after. because there was little to none when I did WJJF in 1992
     
  3. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    1989 - 1992 ..

    No Katas that I remember either H
     
  4. turbine

    turbine New Member

    all of them

    hi,

    thanks for your answers. I have already search yt and the net. I find the syllabus work, but not much about the katas.

    we have a couple of old posters of kama kata and nag, but I know there were meant to be others.

    I actually want videos (or posters) of all 1-14 katas to see how they were done originally and to get back to the original forms.

    thx,

    turbine
     
  5. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    If you're looking to get back to roots, you're probably better off looking at the original Ryu Robert Clark had training in, and learning the kata from there.

    Sorry, I'm not familiar with WJJF or Robert Clark so don't know what they are
     
  6. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    On a side note, it's virtually impossible to learn kata from video's or pictures.

    If you have some understanding you can pick out techniques easy enough, but often with kata it's the bits you don't see that are really important.

    Doing a comparison, you might watch and say 'that's still the same' when in fact there are actually a load of differences you'd see if you had actually learned the kata from someone who knows them
     
  7. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    The problem is there are a lot of questions over what Robert Clarke actually did study. Certainly he adopted Japanese names and terminology for the WJJF, but how much traditional Japanese martial arts material he ever studied is at best unclear. At worst, there are sources that indicate he was involved with fraudulent activities in relation to his martial arts background.

    From 2:30 onwards raises some concerns about Robert Clarke:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k_7l_SrcD8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k_7l_SrcD8[/ame]
     
  8. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    To the OP:

    I think you will struggle unless you get your hands on some older material. The WJJF is essentially a mish mash of stuff that Robert Clark learned from different martial arts.

    What is clear is that the WJJF doesn't have any connection to Koryu. I often found it bizarre that a martial art affects Japanese cultural trappings to portray itself as Japanese, yet there is not one single WJJF club in the whole of Japan :/

    Good luck on your search for material, but I don't think looking at Koryu will help you in your quest.
     
  9. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    This.

    Also this thread seem relevant: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074946864&postcount=1
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Why?

    If it's "just because" then have at it...but Ju Jutsu (and I am including WJJF in that description for teh sake of argument) is one of the WORST arts to do kata for because it is so reliant on tactile response
     
  11. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    Hello everyone,

    I will state that Robert Clark and some of his associates did have a connection at one time with Hontai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu (a branch of Takagi Ryu) in Japan. This was during the time of Inoue Tsuyoshi sensei being the headmaster. It is questionable what type of ranking (if any) was received by this group but they did at least visit for training and then later had some type of falling out. In many circles HYR is considered to be koryu due to its connection to Takagi Ryu and is part of the www.nihonkobudokyoukai.org.

    Regards,
    Todd Schweinhart
    Yoshin Dojo
     
  12. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    Another link that might be of interest to the OP is the excellent piece by a frequent poster on E-budo who conducted extensive research to the origins of British JJ.

    http://eugenesbigadventure.blogspot.co.uk/p/origins-of-british-jujitsu.html

    It gives a few clues about Robert Clarks past training, but be warned, if you are of a sensitive disposition, it doesn't paint Clark in a favourable light.

    To summarise:

    Sadakazu Uyenishi and Yukio Tani came over from Japan at the start of the 20th century apparently from a mysterious school called " Handa School of Jiujitsu". It appears that this may have been a Daito Ryu School ( http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?37917-The-Handa-School-of-Jiujitsu-in-Osaka )

    From then onwards, one of the students of Mr Uyenishi & Mr Tani, called Jack Britten, opened his own school in Liverpool called the Alpha Jujitsu Institute . Robert Clark was a student of this school, and then left to join the British Ju Jitsu Association, which had a syllabus combined of Judo and WW2 combatives it seems.

    Around 1979, with Robert Clark as it's head instructor, the BJJA became the WJJF. For a time it was known as "Juko Ryu", Juko being a portmanteau of Judo and Karate, indicating the WJJF program was essentially a mixture of Judo and Karate (and probably WW2 combatives).

    So WJJF today was based on a mixture of Judo, Karate and WW2 combatives. Hopefully some of that information points the OP in the right direction.
     
  13. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    I had read that too Todd but that is somegood info! One thing I read (which the video also implies) is that the falling out was apparently due to the fact that Mr Clark was issuing certificates on behalf of the Hontai Yoshin Ryu even though, as you say, he doesn't seem to have had any rank with the group.

    I emailed the WJJF back when I was a student with them to ask about the origins of the art and asked my instructor too. I didn't get an answer from either I'm afraid.
     
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Google juko ryu and fraud for the full story,

    Wjjf isn't jujutsu, and has poor karate and Judo in it, with. Copied from books kobudo kata.

    I would consider finding a new dojo to train at if historical legitimacy is important to you.
     
  15. turbine

    turbine New Member

    Hi guys, thanks for all your posts so far.

    I already train in JuJitsu under BJJAGB (where origins are also from WJJF). I also train in other styles and happy with what I get from JuJitsu.

    To come back to my main point, I just search for the original forms from WJJF which I have difficulty finding (why? - because as stated there are many deviations of the same thing). As mentioned I know there are some posters (and I suspect videos etc.), but I just have trouble finding them, hence a post here.

    Thank you again for all info so far (to be fair the history of Robert Clark is known to me!).
     
  16. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    If you cannot find any materials, I would suggest that if Robert Clark's teacher learned a version of Datio Ryu, and then taught a variation of DR to his students, I would try and find a DR school if you want to go back to the source.
     
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    It's very very unlikely it was daito ryu, where did you source that name?
     
  18. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    In Eugene's history from the earlier link and the e-budo source, the 2 Japanese instructors who taught Jack Britten (Clark's teacher) possibly studied some off shoot of DR. It is speculative though, no one knows for sure what they originally were taught. It's a "best guess" that might point the OP in a direction that goes back beyond the WJJF in case they can't find the material they are looking for.
     

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