Orginsations within the orginisation

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Ur Anaite, May 30, 2009.

  1. Ur Anaite

    Ur Anaite tabi cos only 2 toes

    I am not sure if this same thing happens in Genbukan. In the Bujinkan there seem to be a lot of sub orginisations. I mean, apart from the dojo.

    What is the story with this? Do the heads of these orginisations take fees aswell? Does anyone else think this is a bit strange? For example, the budo warriors group which was linked to in the most recent genbukan vs bujinkan thread. With 100s of members it obviously isn't a single dojo, and it is reasonable to imagine that the whole group has the same training ethic...

    Okay, so lots of people are unhappy with how the bujinkans training ethic varies from dojo to dojo, but that is the fault of individual instructors more than anything. It is just as likely that the head of a sub-orginisation will have bad training ethic as an inidividual instructor will...

    Is anyone else unsure how okay this sort of stuff is?
  2. Nutjob

    Nutjob Jimmy Tarbuck

    Hmmm time to let rip i think...

    In the uk you have quite a wide range of schools, smaller ones who just survive like mine, 11 members, and these are quite a few and have some good quality teachers in them because they put their heart into the club and training.

    You have old man Norman Smithers (i'm sure he wont mind me bringing his name up) who was called an empire builder once or twice, this guy has a few clubs dotted around the Uk or his shibu, my understanding of these, and Oni Jiji can correct me if i'm wrong is that he just supports these to help them with their training and takes nohting from them, only encouraging them to get out and train with as many teachers as possible, makes sure they have membership from Japan and do things properly, i think when they are ready his shibu just go their own way, one in B'ham, walsall, Leeds, maybe a couple of others, pretty good idea IMO as it helps others that may struggle.

    Then you have the empire builder, Marc Moore, Budo Warriors, here you can get a shodan in 3 years, i think Michelle Murray went from 10th kyu to 4th Dan in 4 years WTF!!! once you are a BB you go and open your own schools and pay a % back to Marc, this may be incorrect but this is what i have heard. Budo Warriors has over 450 students covering the south west...what a crock of crap, a bujinkan farm...about 25 schools...

    Then you have oher money grabbers such as Jock Brocas, not so clued up to run an empire but he'll have a go anyway and fail.

    there are others that are not so bad and seem to do it for the good of the Bujinkan and not pocket lining like Dave Oliver who has a few but does not push to expand, not sure of many others, Keith Porter?
  3. Nutjob

    Nutjob Jimmy Tarbuck

    sorry, i just heard between 1300 and 1500 students....
  4. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Bloody hell!!

    Still chuckling at Norm being the "Demon Grandpa" :D
    Last edited: May 30, 2009
  5. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    There is nothing wrong with intrapreneurship within the organisation as long as your Shihan/Soke is aware of what you are doing and that you have their permission to do so.

    If you are going to do it and still be a part of the Bujinkan follow Van Donk's example.

    If you don't like the Bujinkan do it like Hayes, Tanemura, Manaka, Roy etc. (and don't think about coming back)
  6. Nutjob

    Nutjob Jimmy Tarbuck

    What happens if Soke is not aware you are farming out crap black belts? oh hold on, quality control....we dont have any..
  7. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    There are too many of these orgs to mention
  8. shinsen

    shinsen Valued Member

    Isn't three years the time that Hatsumi Sensei said it should take to get to shodan?
    The same could be said about someone who goes from 4th to 13th dan in four years.
  9. Nutjob

    Nutjob Jimmy Tarbuck

    yes but this is Michelle Murray!
  10. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    He's also "allowed" some American guy to become the next Soke.
  11. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    Wow, that comes as a shock. Who's the lucky guy?
  12. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    Never heard of this.

    Please elaborate.
  13. Nutjob

    Nutjob Jimmy Tarbuck

    Its got to be Richard Van Dork, there's no one better in the world than the puppy...
  14. skuggvarg

    skuggvarg Valued Member

    She is a 5th dan now mind you!

    I found her facebook video on Keto quite fascinating...I urge you all to have a look at it.

    As for organisations within the org...Dont know much about that. Im only a member of the secret "OK-NBSH" faction. Thats "Only Kata - No ******** Henka" group for those of you who dont know :hat:

    Regards / Skuggvarg
  15. Arashima

    Arashima Banned Banned

    There are loads of empires. The beholder decides whether they are empires, not the person whose name or dojo name appears above several dojo or shibu.

    So yes, Marc Moor seems to have made it his day job, whilst other shihan still work for a living in a real job, but like it or not, and the personalities involved make this even more so, if you group several dojos, shibu or training groups together under you and tend to give the impression to those within your remit that yours is superior to the others (or theirs is inferior to yours), then you have an 'empire', in terms of the sub-division of the Bujinkan within the UK and Europe.

    Some of these empires are about money, some are about ego, some are about a genuine need to impose quality control across an area broader than one dojo, some are just about control and politics and a desire to bring praise from Soke.

    Some empires come about via the originator deliberately promoting people beyond their ability so that they can run clubs on their behalf, as Mr Moor is being accused of by some of you, whilst other empires occur when small training groups align themselves to a shihan of their own choosing, as seems to be the case with Norm. But they are all empires in my book. Not necessarily good or bad, but empires nonetheless.

    The Bujinkan itself in the UK came about via the former method (Marc Moor's), although in the early days even green belts of higher kyu grade could run trainining groups and many people went to Japan and jumped from 10th kyu to shodan or higher in a week. People are always bleating on about going to Japan but that is where virtually all the inflated grades have come from, not homegrown empires!

    Another thing is that you will often find that UK seminars are attended largely by people from one 'empire', even when the teacher for the seminar is a big name from abroad or from outside that empire. If you feel even slightly disloyal for attending a seminar that has nothing to do with your local head honcho then you are in an empire, because empires are where these negative are nurtured and encouraged.

    It can even end up with the empire being cut off from the source, as happened to the BBD, by the actions and decisions of the one man in charge of that empire. BBD stands for Bujinkan Brian Dojo but can his students freely attend any Bujinkan seminars or train in Japan? Some of them say yes but I doubt it. They certainly send no membership fees to Hombu or receive certificates or badges etc from Hombu.

    And don't forget the smaller groups, still run by shihan or shidoshi, but not aligned to or only loosely associated with the empires. We go where we like without putting anyone's back up and we don't become targets for criticism or praise, we just get on with it. We can attend seminars organised by Marc Moor, StephenK , Manchester Dojo, Norman Smithers, Alfredo Castan, Koshin Dojo, anyone we like! We are yellow card carrying Bujinkan members and that is all we care about! :)
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I'm just glad the UK has Alfredo to save us all......not sure what from yet but it's comforting to know ......

  17. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    God, i'm quaking in my slippers already, i'll rip the sleeves off my Gi straight away!:bang:
  18. shinsen

    shinsen Valued Member

    Keto? I thought they said it was called "How-zen"!
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2009

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